Is this the end for Venezuela Socialism?

I think that fantasy is wonderful .... in children. I don't expect for them to understand economy and natural resources. They do not realize that the government of any country is only as effective as it can orchestrate its resources by way of its own population. But their hands are tied, however, when a foreign government has taken control of their livelihood. Funny you haven't understood that - even after "much of the past 26 years in Latin America". I guess isolation is to blame. I met a guy who claimed he knew a lot about Japan because he'd been there countless times. It turned out that he never got further than the wharf.

 

Quote - "when a foreign government has taken control of their livelihood"
I haven't read all the posts leading up to this, but are you seeking to blame
foreign nations for what Venezuela has done to itself?
If so then you belong to that class of people who claim to speak for the poor
but simply hate the rich. And wind up destroying the poor.

 

Why not put something of substance in your posts? Instead you continue with vague notions based on something you read some time ago. Too many Europeans are just too damned clueless.

 

It gets tiresome. Everything is America's fault and that's as far as they can go. Opinions without knowledge or facts.

The explanation for the lack of success in other countries is always the result of the Americans, the CIA, whoever is President, or 'Imperialism'. People migrate to the US from all over the world, often illegally, but soon after arriving they lose all the good sense so commonplace in other countries and become wicked imperialists, etc. The have no idea how tedious they are.

 

I have thought about this.
What would it take for self-called "progressive" people to love America?
Not interfere in other nations? That was "American Isolationism" and people still hated America.
Take care of the poor? America spent trillions on the "war on poverty" and people still hated America.
End slavery and segregation? America did all this and people still hated America.

There is one thing that would stop people hating America.
--- if America lost its wealth ----

In other words, envy is the main driver for anti-US sentiment in the world.

 

I have already spelled it out for you. The vagueness you speak of is in your claim, "It's the fault of Socialism!" Even that I have proved you wrong (without a shadow of a doubt). So you wanted me to give you something with substance and I gave you the culprit, the method and disproved your "one size fits all" rhetoric is wrong. Why are you asking me for more when everything so far has gone over your head? I don't know if it's your lack of political understanding or poor English comprehension skills. Maybe both?

 

It gets tiresome. Everything is the fault of Socialism and that's as far as some people can go. Opinions without knowledge or facts.

The explanation for the lack of success in the U.S. is always the result of the Russians, the KGB, FSB, Putin, or 'Communism'. Too many Americans are just too damned clueless. People who think on that level have no idea how tedious they are.

 

I hear ya. These persistent failures of Socialism throughout the world are not the fault of Socialism itself, it's the fault of the Americans who keep interfering. Otherwise, as in the former USSR, Socialism would work very well.

 

The Venezuelan govts took the oil wealth and gave it to the poor.
It was noble and humane - but it sent the country broke. And being
Socialist, the govts didn't diversify and was hostile to private business.
The govts didn't understand business and economics.

In a nutshell, that is what happened to Venezuela.

 

You're right. If Americans were less successful Socialists would love them, just as they do the ...... Hmmm. Perhaps the leftist world is just an unfriendly and hateful place.

 

Have you been in a coma? What do the countries at the top of this list have in common?

 

It is widely believed the chief aim is and has always been to destroy Chavezism, yes. It will not matter how many 'sub human' indigenous people need to be killed to achieve that. When would the great and marvellous killing machine of the US which has been a white nationalist genocidal machine since it came into being ever be any different.

 

No-one killed Chavezism except the Chavesta govt..
Facts:

Chavesta govt replaced oil industry personnel with loyalists and milked the industry for welfare programs.
Chavesta govt nationalized a lot of agriculture and private businesses - destroying productivity and confidence.
Chavesta govt manipulated the currency market.
Chavesta govt refuses foreign aid.
Chavesta govt has not been attacked by any other country.

nb certainly the Maduro govt would LIKE to be attacked by someone, then
it will have a scapegoat for its self induced misery.

 

Yes.

Since there are too few brave among the population (what with it being held hostage and threatened by its own government) my guess is that it won't be any different until it is, itself destroyed. This is the pity, that in order for the U.S. to rid itself of the treachery within it must collapse. It is similar to children of abusive parents. Once the parents are brought to justice the children become orphans.

 

So, are American forces inside Venezuela, killing natives?
Are they on the side of Maduro? Are they doing his dirty work?
Certainly it would be better to outright kill Venezuelans instead
of letting them starve, but I had no idea that America was
contracted to do this!! For shame Trump, for shame.

 

Ever considered learning anything about this. I will give you that everyone is giving the American public leeway as on this their news is Ace for Corporate Propaganda to fool the masses. People are feeling pity for the people of America. So sad the people actually believed they were a democracy.

 

I have friends who live in Venezuela, fortunately they live off foreign remittances.
Their testimony backs up pretty well what I have just said.
If you have a factual counter-story then why aren't you presenting it - you owe it
to the people of Venezuela.

 

There's a lot you can learn from the European leftists, like how much they really don't know about the Americas. But keep in mind that those 'isms' which killed scores of millions of people, all began in Europe. Very strong on opinions, desperately short on knowledge.

 

What does this garbled nonsense even mean? Which people are feeling pity for America? What 'democracy' are you referring to?

 

Oh so the US should not have policies that "induce" low energy prices for their businesses and citizens because lower prices have a detrimental effect on citizens of other countries.

I agree US sanctions are the straw that broke the nations back. I don't understand why it is our nations business when multinationals lose money in foreign nations.

 

How have you proven me wrong? All Leftists do is claim the failures of socialism is due to the Americans, or 'Imperial Forces' but never Socialism itself. This Pavlovian response doesn't ask for a rebuttal because the matter, in their minds, is settled. Somehow, it must be was the fault of the Americans, their go to bogeyman..

Other factors are never considered (ignoring culture is a good example) but somehow the continued failures must be linked to the USA, and they'll comb the Internet to find anything which might assist their embedded ideas. I've been through these debates debate before and it seems to me that those who supported the failed Socialist policies 20 years ago were able to put up a much better argument supporting their distorted POV than the left of today. They're convinced, like AOC and many Latin American leaders, that shouting their outrage and moral superiority will make their words appear truer than they actually are. Leftists easily buy into this model.

 

Of course it's America's fault. President Trump made the US energy independent only to destroy the economies of oil producing nations. Ask any leftist.

 

The thing you are ignoring, Fred, is that the USA with it's political elite's blind, irrational hatred of what happened in Russia in 1917 has allowed it's foreign policy to be driven by a sort of ideological myopia towards any government that does not tow the line of what it considers to be it's natural right to rule the world, it's peoples and resources.

This has led the US to supporting terrible governments with brutal track-records of murder and oppression. It's led the US into unnecessary, expensive and bloody wars in order to fight an enemy that just did not need to be. Think back to McCarthy and the Un-American Activities fiasco. Now think that this blinkered, insane fear and dread of a type of an imaginary, fully self-created enemy that never needed to be has been the main driver of US policy since the 40's leading it to illegal wars, interventions, sanctions that have starved and killed millions in some of the most wretched countries on Earth.

It has led to the political subordination and instability of countries around the world from Latin America to the Middle East to Africa and South East Asia. Nobody is allowed to embrace a government that does not follow the basics of the Washington or Atlantic consensus. People around the world are just sick of having their countries attacked and CIA covert interventions to overthrow legitimately elected governments just because they want to decide for themselves how to be governed. This is the root of the animus towards the USA. It is that you simply are unable to see past all the "freedom and democracy" and "essential nation" bullshit and see the destruction you really cause in the world - usually in countries that are so much weaker and poorer than yourself that they have no ability to resist.

The Wise Men who originally created what would become the CIA, decided that in fighting communism, the ends justified any means.

But have the ends justified the countries invaded, the elections overturned, the dictators supported and the endless wars your government is propagating around the world?

 

Quote - ""I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the war] was illegal"
Secretary-General Kofi Annan on the US-led invasion of Iraq: September 2004

Nice, smooth, sweet talking words.

The international community holds that the recent elections in Venezuela were illegal.
You support that government.

The international community holds that Russia's involvement in Eastern Europe is illegal
The international community holds that China's seizure of the Sth China Sea is illegal.

The two nations barely rate a mention by the Western Left. Of which I presume yourself
to be a member.

Yet the Western Left focuses upon the "illegality" of the attack upon Saddam Hussein. He
illegally invaded neighboring countries, illegally used WMD's and illegally treated his own
citizens in violations of UN treaties which Iraq is signatory to.
And today Iraq is free and peaceful.

Your signature demonstrates you are unfair, unreasonable, bigoted with anti-American
envy, claim to care but don't, not interested in context and don't know how the world
works.