Is this the Trump Doctrine?

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Striped Horse, Feb 5, 2019.

  1. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Israel isn't our neighbor.

    Israel's house isn't on fire.

    And the only reason a proverbial fire threatens our house, is BECAUSE of all the resentment engendered by our blind support for Israel.

    Also, the interests of Israel are more often in conflict with our interests than they are mutual.

    The US would have no reason to quarrel with Iran if it weren't for our relationship with Israel.

    Iran would be more than happy to sell us their oil and grant us access to their economy if we would simply behave peacefully towards them.

    Instead, we have been on the brink of war for decades, all because we are protecting the interests of a country whose economy is smaller than Nigeria's.
     
  2. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    And which power is the most influential in the UN?

    That would be the US and other western powers.

    I'm not a "lib".

    In fact, I'm much more conservative than you are.

    I believe in the foreign policy advocated by America's founders.

    You believe in the progressive internationalism espoused by people like Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

    Arabs were displaced by the creation of Israel. That is a fact.
     
  3. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, you're probably right for at least my lifetime.

    Maybe the generations comprising those who are currently dying for Israel will recognize how much bankrolling Israel's aggressive Right Wing Occupiers are really costing America in blood & resources.
     
  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    Why not, please, recognize the fact that unconditional US Government support of Israel's manipulative, aggressive and brutal Right Wing Regimes is severely detrimental to US interests and the generations burdened with ensuring Israel's "security" (i.e. regional hegemony)?
     
  5. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Manipulative and brutal? Severely derimental? Hyperbole?
     
  6. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm afraid you've got things backwards.

    Israel is the regional aggressor & nuclear armed super power with US Troops there to die for Israel(1),(2).

    What "arab army" is going to attack nuclear armed Israel hiding behind the US Colossus?

    As I mentioned earlier, Israel is the current aggressor launching unprovoked air and missile strikes on its neighbor, Syria.

    Meanwhile, Iran, the "crazy persians" has attacked no one in 300 years & is in no position to attack anyone.




    (1) "US Commander: ‘US Troops Prepared to Die for Israel’ in War against Syria, Hezbollah"
    https://www.mintpressnews.com/israe...a-harbinger-of-war-on-syria-hezbollah/238768/



    (2) "U.S. Soldiers Sacrificial Lambs"
    http://americanfreepress.net/u-s-soldiers-sacrificial-lambs/

    EXCERPT "During the recent bilateral military exercises, Air Force Lt. Gen. Richard Clark enthused that American soldiers are “prepared to die for the Jewish state” and also added that they would “probably” be under the command of Israeli Air Force Gen. Zvika Haimovitch, who would decide on the involvement of U.S. personnel. Haimovitch commented, “I am sure . . . we will find U.S. troops on the ground . . . to defend the state of Israel.”

    I somehow doubt if Clark would be so sanguine if his own son were told to prepare to die for the Jewish state."CONTINUED
     
  7. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    You may not feel like you've been duped into supporting a thankless government(1) but the Israelis do:



    "WHAT DO ISRAELIS THINK ABOUT AMERICANS? START WITH DISDAIN"
    http://forward.com/news/israel/216074/what-do-israelis-think-about-americans-start-with/

    EXCERPT " Though Israel is a famously fractious society, Israelis tend to agree on one thing: Their strongest supporters are an inherently dupable people.

    “Most Israelis think Americans are pro-Israel and we can sell them anything, especially mud from the Dead Sea,” said David Lifshitz, the lead writer for the Israeli comedy show “Eretz Nehederet,” or “Wonderful Land.”

    “Or — just regular mud with a ‘Dead Sea’ sticker on it.”CONTINUED



    (1) Netanyahu: “Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away”

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060512...pecial_Reports/092105Madsen/092105madsen.html
     
  8. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    So we disagree.
     
  9. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    I think its fair to say that military officers probably send more children to the military than marxist academics or others in America who have never served
     
  10. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    What's that got to do with your claim:
     
  11. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not hyperbole, just the brutal truth.
     
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Then why don't they just walk away from us?
     
  13. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Hyperbolic opinion.
     
  14. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Deflect....

    Israel attacked us, probably twice.
     
  15. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    So, the war of 1947 when Israel faced annihilation, was really started
    when a few settlements declared war on SEVEN Arab nations to expand?
    And the 1967 war, when the Jews were digging mass graves in their
    parks, was started by the Jews wanting more territory?
    And the 1973 Yom Kippur war was started by Jews wanting to take
    Egypt?

    The problem with wars that are not "America's business" is that wars
    are EVERYBODY'S BUSINESS. We all suffer when nations slaughter
    each other - not just in trade, refugees and such but in the substantial
    moral issue of our responsibilities to our fellow humans.
     
  16. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    So are the Left wingers. They tie America's hand in conflict.
    Or prevent American stopping conflict.
    Talking to a Vietnam veteran today about why American didn't
    take on Russian and China's military aid to Vietnam. Thousands
    of tanks and planes poured into Nth Vietnam and the "doves"
    didn't want US to confront the issue.

    As for this "Israel's aggressive"
    I think you need to define what you mean by aggression.
    The great wars of 1948, 1967 and 1973 were all started
    by the Arabs.
     
  17. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    No disrespect intended but your doubts are not really the point. Russia has shown that it adheres to international law and has also demonstrated considerable restraint in Syria when you consider that it's forces there have been repeatedly and knowingly attacked and killed by Turkish, American and Israeli military forces.

    I have also looked closely at those alleged numerous "gas attacks" and there is little to convince me - and many, many others too - that they were not largely fabrications of the notorious White Helmets and/or Turkey arranged for pure propaganda purposes only in order to draw the US further into the quagmire there. And that ploy succeeded to a certain extent too, because elements in the US desired to get further engaged.

    In case you haven't read them I'm happy (if you wish) to link Prof Postol's study of the alleged gas attack at Sheikhoun. We also have Seymour Hersh's excellent article on another gas attack in Syria which was found to be without foundation. Then we can think of British veteran reporter, Robert Fisk, who conclusively showed that the alleged gas attack in Douma didn't actually happen. I can go on and on.

    There are multiple brands of cigarettes. People take their pick of them too. I see no enduring principal of one choice being better than the next if it is based on such a superficial basis alone. Historically, you may be right that the Jews have been the most hated minority on Earth. Nowadays, I rather suspect that dubious mantle has been shifted on to the shoulders of Muslins and that Israel has been partly responsible for that change in emphasis.

    In the last analysis it's far more sensible to make sure one is better informed I think, and then apply that knowledge as a basis of of determining what is right and what is wrong and how to wend one's way through the bewildering smoke and mirrors of untruths, misinformation and propaganda.
     
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  18. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    I'll be the judge of that....

    :laughing:
     
  19. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Again no disrespect intended but it seems to me you are poorly informed about realite and are rather naive in your acceptance of such narratives.
     
  20. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Attacked who? And why?
    I have followed all this since 1967.
    I was in the Australian army and
    wanted to go to Israel then - we
    thought they were all going to die.

    Some of my family lived in Israel.
    I also lived and worked with Arabs
    for many years too. You start to
    get a feel for the nature of the issues
    after a while.

    As an aside. Back during the Cold
    War a friend and me asked a group
    of Arabs, "What would you do if you
    had an atomic bomb?"
    they chorused, "drop it on America."
    "But America has at least 10,000
    atomic bombs, what would happen
    to your own countries?"
    "Doesn't matter"
    I turned to my friend and said,
    "Doesn't that make you afraid?"
    Here were Jordanians, Iraqis,
    Syrians, Egyptians etc.. At this
    time there was no Gulf War, no
    911, no Afghanistan. Just one
    prosperous Christian country.
    How does a Muslim explain their
    poverty and Christian wealth?
    You see today how they explain
    this - by blaming us for their
    poverty.
     
  21. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    Re:

    I was in Laos during the Vietnam War and can assure that the US did "...confront the issue" of material coming into the region. The US had no other option other than bombing China & the former USSR which would have been madness.

    Anyway, I fail to see how America's unconditional support of each & every Israeli war crime, act of aggression etc furthers US interests in the Mid East.

    Yes, Israel is the regional aggressor as it is currently launching air strikes & missiles into Syria just as it was the aggressor in at least 3 of its wars, especially the long planned "Six Day War"(1)

    It has long been clear that it is Netanyahu who controls Trump(2) to the point that US Troops continue to fight in the region "for Israel"(3) and not for US interests.

    Why do you think that it is in any way in America's best interests to have young Americans dying in the region for such a thankless government:

    Netanyahu: “Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away”

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060512...pecial_Reports/092105Madsen/092105madsen.html





    (1) “Begin's Admission in 1982 That Israel Started Three of Its Wars”
    http://www.washingtonreport.me/1994-july-august/middle-east-history-begin-s-admission-in-1982-that-israel-started-three-of-its-wars.html

    EXCERPT "In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."CONTINUED


    (2) "How Netanyahu Pulls Trump’s Strings"
    https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/15/how-netanyahu-pulls-trumps-strings/

    EXCERPTS "Since Sept. 18, when the two men met in New York around the United Nations General Assembly, Netanyahu has been pulling Trump’s strings on almost every foreign policy issue.

    Trump further showed that he is following Netanyahu’s marching orders with the extremist speech about Iran on Friday, essentially repeating all the Israeli propaganda lines against Iran and burning whatever bridges remained toward a meaningful diplomatic approach.

    Although dressing up his capitulation to Netanyahu in tough-guy phrasing, Trump is doing what most U.S. politicians do – they grovel before Bibi Netanyahu."CONTINUED

    (3) "TRUMP: U.S. TROOPS WILL REMAIN IN THE MIDDLE EAST FOR ISRAEL"

    https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Trump-US-troops-will-remain-in-the-Middle-East-for-Israel-572997



    EXCERPT "We have reached a point where we don't have to stay in the Middle East. One reason to stay is Israel," U.S. President Donald Trump said on Tuesday evening with an exclusive interview with the Washington Post."CONTINUED
     
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  22. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    I was replying to your embittered and uninformed comment that the gereral officers children were not being sent into harm’s way

    Since the sons of career officers often follow their fathers into service also
     
  23. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    I very much remember the 1967 was too. A more dangerous time, for me anyway, was the Cuban missile crisis. There was another event that happened with Israel that I suspect Eleuthera is going to respond to - I happen to know that President Johnson had nuclear bombers flying to Israel in retaliation and they were close to their no return point and Johnson only pulled the plug - sent the recall message - at the last moment.

    "Brown pants" were the order of the day in the Pentagon, I was told.

    When it comes to nation states there a none who are innocent. Each have very sordid and shocking things to hide. In Palestine, an Ottoman region at the time, and prior to the birth of Israel saw the Stern Gang - terrorists - bombing and killing British forces who ruled there. Which some might find curious given that it was the British, in the form of the Balfour Declaration, that had agreed to turn over Palestine to become the Jewish state of Israel.

    At that time the British Establishment was very markedly Arabist, extremely anti-Semitic and hideously racist. They only really agreed to the Balfour Declaration because they wanted to influence America to enter the war and they needed American Jewish support to achieve this. In other words a case of cynical self-interest. As always.

    But that is all water under the bridge. Today I would sake it takes two to Tango.

    For what little it may be worth, I'll give the following a try, as you seem a quite open and pleasant guy who may be interested. On the other hand you might be wholly uninterested, in which case ignore it.

    There is a considerable danger forming judgements based upon stories in the mainstream media. The media are not in business of informing their readers - dis-informing and misinforming them is their game as part of strategy to shape their attitudes (as well as to act as a platform for their in-house advertisers).

    I think it is important to find decent - often old-fashioned - journalists who are unafraid to report outside of the mainstream consensus and narrative, as otherwise one is simply snared into the orbit of scripted narratives - and the fact is that most of us are group-thought into these narratives from an early age as young school children.

    Thereafter, when adulthood approaches these narratives are already deeply imbued as "obvious truths" and daily reinforced in every way possible to imagine. This becomes acceptable a "group-think" - an egregore - and becomes a mentally constructed Panopticon where you are both the prisoner and the jailer.... except neither is ever aware of the other or even the Panopticon itself.

    This construct is very, very difficult to recognise and even harder to escape from -- assuming consciousness of it dawns. The fact is that breaking these chains means challenging every aspect of your personal belief system from childhood to the present time.

    It's not at all a comfortable or pleasing thing to undertake. And most people avoid it like the plague and are content to remain imprisoned as it is a lot easier to accept/tolerate.

    Hence so many members of this forum (and other fora) who will fight, wriggle and struggle - very often to a quite preposterous extent - to avoid challenging themselves to alter their perception of reality.

    Those who become escapees from themselves will never, ever be the same again. They carry the ever seeping wound of consciousness. They are the cursed and the damned. They will never return to being Cypher nor desire to be plugged back into the Matrix again.

    In closing I note that there are a few members of this forum who have had the scales knocked off their eyes -- and have the scars to prove it, of course.

    I'll get my coat.....

     
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  24. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    I didn't make that claim.
    That assertion was made by the author of the article I cited as a source for the fact that US Troops have been stationed in Israel for Israel's "security" (i.e. regional hegemony)

    I'm not the only loyal American who resents & opposes the use of US Troops as Netanyahu's pro bono cannon fodder while he works to provoke hostilities with Syria.

    Once again, Israel's Right Wing Hawks are eager to use American blood for wars that only serve Israeli regional hegemony:

    "But few remember what AIPAC executive director Howard Kohr told the New York Sun in January 2003: "Quietly lobbying Congress to approve the use of force in Iraq was one of AIPAC's successes over the past year."

    And in a New Yorker profile of Steven Rosen, AIPAC's policy director during the run-up to the war on Iraqi, it was stated that "AIPAC lobbied Congress in favor of the Iraqi war".
    https://www.sott.net/article/158160-And-the-winner-is-the-Israel-lobby

    Why do you want loyal American G.I.s dying for such a thankless regime?

    Netanyahu: “Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away”

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060512...pecial_Reports/092105Madsen/092105madsen.html
     
  25. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Obviously.

    Whereas you support wasting outrageous amounts of our money and energy on defending and promoting the interests of a foreign country whose economy is smaller than Nigeria's, I support directing that money and energy on defending and promoting the interests of America.
     
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