Islam & Christianity the same tradition ?

Before, you said Sharia was evil.

Now, you're saying if the people agree, then you don't care.

 

There is so much deliberate obfuscation - name calling -accusations and just plain nonsense in this post I am not sure where to begin.

I talked previously about Islam uses sophisticated mind control techniques in teaching people that if the "question" or "don't believe" the worst thing the mind can think of will happen to them - eternal torture in the afterlife. This fear is lodged deep within the subconscious.

When the adherent comes across information that conflicts with belief a thought avoidance response is triggered. The adherent - without even realizing it tries to avoid the "bad thought" - the thought that might lead them to the terrible place where they will be tortured eternally.

Some of these avoidance techniques are denial - denial of the obvious - just avoiding the main premise by moving the goalposts. A particular favorite is "demonization of the messenger". Numerous of these avoidance techniques are displayed in your post.

1)

Just because your didn't know - and have no ability to figure out that Law enables to the state to use physical violence to punish/force compliance - is no reason to call me a liar. (demonization of the messenger)

It is political Science 101 and it is quite straightforward. By definition - Making a law gives the State the ability to use physical violence to punish or force compliance with that punishment. Try escaping from jail or resisting arrest and see what happens. Muslim nations sometimes prefer lashes or chopping off a hand .. and other physical punishments rather than incarceration - it does not matter - physical violence is involved in one form or another.

Killing someone for apostasy is forcing belief on someone else through physical violence. Call it using violence to punish someone for not adhering to belief if it makes you feel better. (Denial of the obvious and obfuscation)

2)

I didn't call all Muslims Islamist's - in fact I stated directly that not all Muslims are Islamist's. ( Strawman fallacy - putting words in my mouth that I did not say you have something to attack - a form of demonization of the messenger). I do not use the word Muslims because not all Muslims are Islamist's.

I did not form an automatic connection between Islam and extremism - As stated above and previously - not all Muslims are extremists. (Strawman 2)

Islamist's indeed choose force religious belief on others through physical violence (Law) - this is why they are Evil.

3)

Not all Muslims accept Sharia - so clearly Islam does not justify forcing religious belief on others through physical violence in the non evil Muslim's mind.

Regardless - If Islam is the justification for following Sharia for Muslims - Good for them - Follow Sharia. Just don't force others to follow the principles of Sharia through law/physical violence.

What part of - there is a difference between 1) having a belief and following that belief and 2) forcing that belief on others through physical violence do you not understand ?

I am not the one trying to force my religious beliefs on others through physical violence.

More denial of the obvious. You know as well as I that you can not prove that the Koran is God's word.

Yes - I realize Sharia Law gives the death penalty for apostasy in some Muslim lands. The idea that you can't figure out that this is using physical violence is .. well (denial of the obvious).

4)

Not sure where this random turd came from. I never claimed that you did. The Golden Rule is in the Quran - as is the principle that there is no compulsion in Islam. Once again you are feigning ignorance of what you know to be true - another thought avoidance mechanism.

This comment tries to avoid a thought that you clearly find very disturbing. The simple principle that if you don't want others forcing their religious beliefs on you - then it is immoral to condone doing this to others.

 

I know you are not this daft. Sharia Law is Evil.

If people want to follow the principles of Sharia - that is none of my business. If someone wants to force others to follow these principles through Law - now I take issue.

Are you seriously not understanding the difference between 1) having a belief and following that belief and 2) forcing others to follow said belief through physical violence (Law)?

 

Yet, you can't use the word as if they were the same thing.
You use the word 'physical violence' when you talk about Sharia. But Sharia is quite a bit more than the situations where someone struggles with another or harms another physically.

Belief cannot be forced. It isn't possible. And there is no death penalty for leaving Islam.

You said the majority of them are, and after you refused to define 'islamist' I concluded you think it refers to someone different than the word 'Muslim'. So while you should be using the word 'Muslim' you choose the word 'islamist' because it is in the media in connection with terrorism.

And now you are saying 'Islamists' are 'extremists'

it isn't possible for an observant muslim to not accept Sharia - however, Sharia is not applied identically everywhere.

But lying is okay?

Actually it proves itself.

I repeat, it is 'no compulsion in religion'.

 

Because they're lying and I'm not. Islam and Sharia law are oppressive as **** and denying it doesn't make it not true.

 

Lying about what?

 

Lying, lying, lying. Stop ****ing lying.

Saudi Arabia: Poet Sentenced to Death for Apostasy

Reverses Earlier Ruling of 4 Years, 800 Lashes

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/11/23/saudi-arabia-poet-sentenced-death-apostasy

"The court convicted Meriam Yehya Ibrahim, 27, of apostasy, or the renunciation of faith. Ibrahim is Christian, her husband said. But the court considers her to be Muslim because she married a Muslim man.

Under Sudan's sharia law, Ibrahim was also convicted of adultery and sentenced to 100 lashes because her marriage to a Christian man is considered void.

Sudan is not the only place where blasphemy laws are creating havoc.

My own land of birth Pakistan is reeling from an onslaught of blasphemy-related incidents. Under the banner of this inhuman law, an estimated 1,000 people have been charged since 1987. The Center for Research and Security Studies, based in Islamabad, shows that there were 80 blasphemy complaints in 2011. There are no statistics after that, but analysts believe that 2014 may be a record year.

Individual blasphemy cases filed against the minority Ahmadi and Christian communities are common knowledge, but now there is a trend to apply the blasphemy law towards anyone the establishment does not agree with. The punishment for blasphemy is death."

https://www.investigativeproject.org/4403/guest-column-pakistan-frightening-blasphemy

Pakistani Christian Woman Killed for Refusing to Convert to Islam

https://www.persecution.org/2019/07/18/pakistani-christian-women-killed-refusing-convert-islam/

The countries where apostasy is punishable by death

Thirteen countries, all of a Muslim majority, punish apostasy (the renunciation of a particular religion), or blasphemy with death.

The annual Freedom of Thought report by the International Humanist and Ethical Union, found that 13 countries impose capital punishment upon people simply for their beliefs, or lack of them.

Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen are the relevant countries.

All of these countries, except Pakistan, allow for capital punishment against apostasy, while Pakistan imposes the death penalty for blasphemy - including a disbelief in God.

[Note that ALL in there.]

https://www.indy100.com/article/the-countries-where-apostasy-is-punishable-by-death--Z110j2Uwxb

Islamic Forced Conversions—Past and Present

Forced conversions are the tip of the iceberg, and certainly not anomalies of history.

The lost history of Christians forced to convert to Islam—or die—is reemerging, figuratively and literally. According to the BBC: “Pope Francis has proclaimed the first saints of his pontificate in a ceremony [last Sunday] at the Vatican—a list which includes 800 victims of an atrocity carried out by Ottoman soldiers in 1480.They were beheaded in the southern Italian town of Otranto after refusing to convert to Islam.”

some recent anecdotes:

In Pakistan, a “devoted Christian” was butchered by Muslim men “with multiple axe blows [24 per autopsy] for refusing to convert to Islam.” Another two Christian men returning from church were accosted by six Muslims who tried to force them to convert to Islam, but “the two refused to renounce Christianity.” Accordingly, the Muslims severely beat them, yelling they must either convert “or be prepared to die. . . . the two Christians fell unconscious, and the young Muslim men left assuming they had killed them.”

In Bangladesh some 300 Christian children were abducted in 2012 and sold to Islamic schools, where “imams force them to abjure Christianity.” The children are then instructed in Islam and beaten. After full indoctrination they are asked if they are “ready to give their lives for Islam,” presumably by becoming jihadi suicide-bombers. (Even here the historic patterns are undeniable: for centuries, Christian children were forcibly taken, converted to and indoctrinated in Islam, trained to be jihadis extraordinaire, and then unleashed on their former Christian families. Such were the Janissaries and Mamelukes.)

In Palestine in 2012, Christians in Gaza protested over the “kidnappings and forced conversions of some former believers to Islam.” The ever-dwindling Christian community banged on a church bell while chanting, “With our spirit, with our blood we will sacrifice ourselves for you, Jesus.”

In Pakistan, a Christian couple was arrested on a false charge and severely beaten by police. The pregnant wife was “punched, kicked and beat” as her interrogators threatened to kill her unborn baby. A policeman offered to drop the theft charge if the husband would only “renounce Christianity and convert to Islam,” but the man refused.

In Uzbekistan, a 26-year-old Christian woman, partially paralyzed from youth, and her elderly mother were violently attacked by invaders who ransacked their home, confiscating “icons, Bibles, religious calendars, and prayer books.” At the police department, the paralyzed woman was “offered to convert to Islam.” She refused, and the judge “decided that the women had resisted police and had stored the banned religious literature at home and conducted missionary activities. He fined them 20 minimum monthly wages each.”

In Sudan, Muslims kidnapped a 15-year-old Christian girl; they raped, beat and ordered her to convert to Islam. When her mother went to police to open a case, the Muslim officer of the so-called “Family and Child Protection Unit,” told her: “You must convert to Islam if you want your daughter back.”

Indeed, because Christian females are the most vulnerable segments of Islamic societies, they are especially targeted for forced conversions. In 2012, U.S. Congress heard testimony about the “escalating abduction, coerced conversion and forced marriage of Coptic Christian women and girls [550 cases in the last five years alone]. Those women are being terrorized and, consequently, marginalized, in the formation of the new Egypt.”

https://www.theblaze.com/contributions/islamic-forced-conversions-past-and-present

 

Got so many contradiction there I don't understand what has happened. Sudan or Saudi Arabia? Married to a Muslim or Christian? 800 or 100 lashes?

All I know is that she is an activist, that both Sudan and Saudi Arabia are corrupted to the core - so you can't really expect them to follow Sharia - and that she wasn't killed. She left the country.

Just an individual.

Media often reports that someone was condemned for apostasy, but I have yet to see a single case where the person was actually accused simply of leaving the religion. In Islam when people (Muslims, scholars) sometimes talk about apostasy and a punishment they aren't talking about leaving Islam, but about harming the community, blasphemy, treason,eetc. While renouncing Islam.

Stop lying. For blasphemy yes there can be a severe punishment.

 

Multiple examples. Try to keep up.

Seriously? You're going to say the home of the Kaaba doesn't follow Sharia law? You're going to say the country where Mecca and Medina lie doesn't follow Sharia law? Do you manage to keep a straight face while lying so outrageously in print?

Among thousands.

A convenient excuse for killing someone for leaving the religion. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has a death warrant on her head for leaving Islam. Here's a list of ex-Muslims who have been persecuted for leaving the religion, in 50 different countries: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims

Yes, if you can call death a "severe punishment". But I showed that you lied in every instance. There is forced conversion in Islam, there is the death penalty for apostasy, there is the death penalty for blasphemy, and Islam, Islamic countries, and Muslims are repressive, cruel, and unjust. Even in those countries like India where there's a significant Islamic presence, Islam is repressive, cruel, and unjust. Every other religion on earth is more peaceful, more tolerant, and more just. Your religion sucks and you know it.

 

What I'm saying is they implement the law wrong.

So?

No she doesn't.

No. There isn't.

 

Were the men that flew airplanes into the World Trade Center buildings muslims?

 

Denying isn't going to work here. You're dealing with knowledgeable intelligent people.

 

Not exactly.

Investigators these days say it was a conspiracy from within the US though.

 

This is not exactly a refutation though. Doesn't anyone have anything to say, but repeat what they said before?

 

You deny that the attackers on 9/11 were muslims. Why do you lie? You say "investigators" say the attack on 9/11 was a conspiracy within the US. What organization do these so called "investigators" belong to?

 

You have gone into some dark room where information can not penetrate. What I said - clarified in quite some detail in 2 posts - is that Law - by definition - gives some authority power to punish violators of that law through physical violence.

Once again you try are engaging in avoidance tactics by pretending I said something I did not and then attacking it (Strawman fallacy).

Once again you obfuscate followed by falsehood. 1) People can be compelled to follow belief - abstaining from Alcohol for example - through force. Not only is it possible - it happens every day.

2)
"Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen are the relevant countries.

All of these countries, except Pakistan, allow for capital punishment against apostasy, while Pakistan imposes the death penalty for blasphemy - including a disbelief in God".

Either you have no clue what you are talking about or you are deliberately stating a falsehood.

I did define Islamist - "Someone who believes that Sharia should be enforced through Law" (another falsehood)

Since I am discussing Islamist's - it would be generalizing the evil traits of part of a group - to the whole group - which is fallacy.

The media generally avoids the term Islamist - and I have not discussed terrorism (once again you are in la la land - desperately trying to avoid reality).

You continue to pretend not to understand what is being discussed - this is a thought avoidance response. Accepting Sharia and following the various dictates of Sharia on a personal basis is completely separate from forcing others to follow the principles of Sharia by making these principles into Law.

You seem to think that lying is OK - ever since I presented factual info that did not sit well with you have engaged in falsehood, deception and various other deceitful tactics in order to try to avoid the "bad thought".

The Koran is no more or less "God's word" than the Bible, Baghavad Gita, or the Greek Myths. Perhaps some of these religious texts contain God's word. The fact of the matter however is that this can not be proven.

You can lie to me if you like but, stop lying to yourself.

The conversation is about "Law" being compulsion - not religion. This yet another attempt on your part to pretend you do not understand what is being discussed.

 

But it is nothing but manipulation to write so that you constantly say 'physical violence' and add after it '(Law)' when you're really referring to [you claim] the law. So you're being misleading on purpose.

But can't be compelled to believe - which is what you insinuated.

I already commented on this subject as a response to another.

This is a Muslim. So maybe you don't understand what a Muslim is?

What is it about sharia law that is evil in your opinion?

Not at all. Sharia is part of Islam. So is the fact that it is a law of the land. Not just of those who like it.

it's about your mistranslating the Koran. You say the Koran says 'there is no compulsion in Islam',but the Koran literally says 'there is no compulsion in religion.' Here I can show you the literal translation of the verse.

2:256 "(There is) no compulsion in the religion. Surely has become distinct the right (path) from the wrong. Then whoever disbelieves in false deities and believes in Allah, then surely he grasped the handhold - [the] firm, (which) not (will) break [for it]. And Allah (is) All-Hearing, All-Knowing"

 

Making law is allowing the state to use physical violence to compel people to follow that law. What part of this do you not understand ?

I did not say people could be compelled to believe. Why are you being so disingenuous. People can be compelled to observe tenets of another persons belief - not drinking alcohol for example. What part of this do you not understand.

When people make laws messing with individual liberty on the basis of religious belief - this is evil - as it is using physical violence to force others to observe that religious belief.

The above is semantic gibberish.. Saying "There is no compulsion in Religion" is saying there is no compulsion in Islam as Islam is a religion.

Once again - for like the 10th time now - making law which messes with individual liberty on the basis of religious belief is Evil... Full Stop.

 

The codex sinaiticus is a hoax. https://www.jesus-is-lord.com/sinaiticus.htm

 

Ironic.
Nothing wrong with more similar however their is not the same as there.

 

The part where it is acceptable to use these words interchangeably.

The part where you repeatedly say 'force their beliefs on others'.

Or you could just admit you were wrong.

There's a significant difference. Again, you can't use these words interchangeably.

You have yet to tell me what makes Sharia evil. The more you avoid the topic the more it seems you have no idea.

 

Well I guess they paid too much for it. Though, to be honest - as much as I trust you! - I think the Russians and the brits would have known it by now.

 

Governments support lies every minute. Do you really think any government bureaucrat is going to say that religion is BS and built on lies?

 

Do you know when the Koran was reformatted into numbered chapters and verses like the Bible and who did it?