Islam & Christianity the same tradition ?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Aleksander Ulyanov, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your mind is desperately trying to avoid the simple and obvious fact - that making a law allows the state to use physical violence to compel others to abide by that law - and so you make up nonsense.

    There are no interchanged words .. it is a clear and direct sentence.

    Sharia Law is evil because if people do not abide by these laws they are subjected to physical violence - and I have said this at least 5 times.
     
  2. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Sharia is bad in the modern world. It was a slight liberal improvement over the Old Testament Jewish rules. If you hate sharia you would go nuts living under the Old Testament Jewish laws.
     
  3. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very true - The interesting thing is that the Israelites did not live under those laws :)
     
  5. Moshty

    Moshty Member

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    You have described all laws being this way.
     
  6. Moshty

    Moshty Member

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    After Muhammad's death. A lot of people took part in it.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have not but I understand why you might think that. Part of the problem is that it took 6 posts for you to finally stop denying the obvious - a denial of a claim akin to "water is wet". If someone refuses to admit that 1 + 1 = 2. There is no point in discussing algebra.

    So are we clear ? - Making criminal law allows the some authority to use physical violence to enforce compliance. Notice I used added the term "Criminal" - this is to separate out things like speeding and parking tickets. (although even these violations can lead to the threat of physical harm - should someone try to drive without a license or insurance)

    Another difference is between Laws that mess with individual liberty and those do not. I used this term previously but you may have not understood what the term "individual liberty" means. Killing someone is not individual liberty - the basic rule of thumb is that rights end where the nose of another begins - this is also where the "legitimate authority" of Gov't begins and ends - as per secular Philosophy of Law.

    So things like murder, rape, theft - direct harm one person on another is in one category. Things like smoking pot, consensual sex between adults and so on - is in another.

    The difference between Secularism and Theocracy is defined in part by "Legitimacy of Authority" . In a secular society with a democratic process the authority of Gov't comes from "consent of the Governed" .. as opposed to "divine right"/God as was the case in the past in Western Society. There are other non democratic secular forms of Gov't such as totalitarianism.

    Totalitarianism is universally recognized as evil - although one could argue that a benevolent dictatorship might not do evil things but, this does not change the fact that such a system is intrinsically evil.

    In a dictatorship the leader needs to provide no justification for Laws that are made. It is completely at the whim of the dictator. The dictator is then allowed to violate the golden rule - without consequence and the people have no recourse.

    Feel free to disagree with me if you like on a personal basis. Perhaps you desire a state of powerlessness - essentially having the status of a slave or indentured servant. . Even if this is how you feel on a personal basis however, - it is still evil to want to force other people to exist in a state of powerlessness.

    .
     
  8. pakuaman

    pakuaman Active Member

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    I know I am entering the discussion late so i apologize if i repeat anything but after 3 years in the seminary my understanding is this.

    Yes Christianity and Islam are both Abraham religions. And evolved from the Jewish heritage of both religions. However they have ended up in very different places. The chief figure in this being Christ.

    first of they are both called Abrahamic faiths because both faiths come from Abraham. If you don't know the story Abraham had 2 sons Isaac and Ishmael. Without getting into too much detail. Ismael was sent away and Isaac stayed with Abraham. This is where the fist split happens. Followers of Islam are followers of Ishmael and believe him to be the leader of the 1 true religion and chosen people while at the same time Jews believe themselves to be followers of Isaac the leader of the the chosen people. Then Jesus would come and that would mark the start of Christianity.

    The second radical difference is Christians believe in a new covenant of love and forgiveness that was established after the death of Christ (the word incarnate). Jews in Muslims still believe in the the old covenant and the old law continued by Mohamed. That is what sets Christianity apart form the other religions. Why followers of Islam thinks they can lift themselves up and earn their own salvation through their own actions Christians look at all of the failures of the past prophets of the Old Testament (and the disciples of the New) and believe that this is impossible for humans because of their flawed nature and therefore a savior that was both man and fully divine (Christ) to fulfill the old covenant and establish a new one based on love and forgiveness so that all men can be saved.

    Basically they come from the same heritage but ended up in two very different places as Islam places their faith in man to uphold the old law while Christians believe man is flawed and needed a savior to fulfill the old law so a new law of love and forgiveness can be established.

    I admit I don't know too much about Mormons however I will say this You are correct in saying that Christianity and Islam are both Abrahamic religions but they are very different. If the Mormon religion accepts the New covenant and the forgiveness of sins then I would have to say that Mormons are closer to Christianity but if they don't then you could be right because Christianity and Islam do share a Jewish heritage.
     
  9. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    They haven't been teaching you very well in the seminary. Islam is not an Abrahamic religion for the simple fact that Mohammed's claims about Arabs and Ishmael are lies. The Arabs didn't appear until a thousand years after Abraham, and they did not originate from the kingdoms supposedly started by Ishmael's descendants. There is no evidence to indicate Abraham was ever within 500 miles of Mecca, the place where Mohammed claimed he was. There is no evidence to indicate that Ishmael ever came anywhere near the Arabian peninsula. Even going by the early references, the Koran admits that most Arabs are not descended from Ishmael. Still another section refers to Arabs being the descendants of Shem, the son of Noah. Mohammed himself didn't even know his own grandfather's name, never mind ~2,500 years of genealogy. His connection to Ishmael he discovered in a "revelation".

    https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/arabs.html


    "Therefore, the equation Arab = Ishmaelite is a myth, because Ishmael was not an Arab, nor the forefather of all Arabs; actually, his descent contributed to the formation of the peoples that came to be known as Arabs some centuries later. Connected with the alleged Ishmaelite identification, the Semitic identity is taken for granted, yet, this is also a half-truth because the Arabian ethnicity and culture arose from an original Kushite stock that was subsequently assimilated by the Semitic tribes that came after them, and even the Ishmaelites were a mixed group with a strong Hamitic component, as we will see in this essay."

    http://www.imninalu.net/myths-arabs.htm

    The claim that Islam is an Abrahamic religion is about as accurate as saying that Satanism is a Christian religion. Satan being a major figure in Christianity does not justify the claim. Abraham being a major figure in Islam does not justify the claim.
     
  10. pakuaman

    pakuaman Active Member

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    yes,
    But the OP was talking about the belife system today. I don't think their belief is right however It is what the present state of the believe is today and I am simply speaking to what they believe and am comparing and contrasting it to the belief system of Christianity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  11. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Which is no different from ALL law, all of which is an imposition of somebody's morality.

    Here's an example. I'm a foodie and have heard horsemeat is pretty good. I wouldn't mind trying it, but busybodies in the US, unlike many other places, have decided I can't. Is that OK?
     
  12. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure Iran or North Korea would agree. Amazing how our Western freedoms originating in the Judeo/Christian West just happened to come from there and no place else.

    There is no biblical principle of Divine Right of Kings, God warned Israel against a having a king, they did anyway, with disastrous results. The closest you can come to that is that Christians are to support those in authority over us as far as it does not violate God's law, and that they are put there to maintain order.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just because all law is an imposition of someones morality does not make all law the same - and certainly not in the context of this conversation.

    As you point out - one persons poison is another persons pleasure. There is a big difference between laws dealing with protection of harm - one person on another (rape, murder, theft and so on) - and a law.restricting someone from eating horse meat.

    The question is one of legitimacy of authority. What is the legitimate authority of Gov't - and where this authority comes from. This determines whether or not law is legitimate or illegitimate.

    Law forbidding murder is legitimate - Law forbidding you from eating horse meat is not. This is true regardless of "someones" moral perspective.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am quite sure that many in North Korea and Iran would agree. I believe that some of the justification for Divine right comes from Roman's 13 but, it matters not. "God Says So" is an invalid justification for law in a secular society - by definition.
     
  15. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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  16. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't the fairy tale say that the God character made Saul king and that he loved that scummy King David?

    Exodus 22:28 (NKJV) = You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
     
  17. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean, hidden?
     
  18. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    Humor is a difficult concept for you, isn't it?
     
  19. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    As grammar is for you.
     
  20. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    The Founders said this authority came from our Creator, who has endowed us with certain rights. Political power is therefore loaned to politicians.

    Atheist regimes had no problem with killing undesirables, they thought it was for the good of society, and did it by the tens of millions. Why not, if you think man is a cosmic accident with no more intrinsic value than a dog, and that there are no eternal moral laws or punishment? Take God out of the picture, and all you have is personal preference.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  21. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't say anything about how that ruler came to power.
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The above is a complete falsehood and the reverse is true. . The authority of Gov't in the US comes from "consent of the governed" The whole point of which was to move away from "divine right"/God - where the authority of Gov't came from God.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it

    The power/authority of Gov't comes from "consent of the Governed" - not from God. This the main thing that separates a secular system from a theocratic one. The idea that the founders wanted "theocracy" is patently absurd.

    The purpose of invoking the creator - was to put individual liberty "Above" - out of the hands of - beyond the power of Gov't. This is then taking power away from Gov't on the basis of some Creator ( a term intentionally chosen not to invoke the Christian God)- not Giving power/authority to Gov't on the basis of God. You have completely misunderstood the DOI.

    Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
    -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88 ) , from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258

    In simple terms - Your wrong.

    Why you are conflating a secularism with pro active atheism I have no idea. Just because someone does not want Theocracy does not make them an atheist - and the idea that when you take God out of Gov't -all you have is personal preference lacks meaning, context and is false.
     
  23. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Has any outsider ever seen it?
     
  24. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they also added and subtracted all kinds of other things as well. Consider all of the hadiths they made up.
     
  25. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Which ruler are you referring to?
     

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