Islam Thread

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Well Ojleb to clarify my position, there were appartently two books written about the Islam. The first was the book calling for peaceful relations to everybody, the second book was aparently the more aggresive part, calling for war. Apparently the first book held the original words of Muhammed, and that the second book was written years after Muhammed died and that his followers combined them.

 

The Melchizedek priesthood is a silly idea. Some guy had too much time on his hands when he wrote that story.

Consider the Old Testament reference to Melchizedek in Genesis 14:1-20 when he is introduced as the king of Salem and and the priest of El Elyon. Abram fored over 10 percent of his stuff as an offering. El Elyon is the local diety, later promoted to the big God.

Now later on Moses starts the Levite cult with his brother Aaron as the first boss. That continued until Jesus showed up.

There's a reference to Melchizedek in Psalm 110:4 = The LORD has sworn a solemn pledge and won’t change his mind: “You are a priest forever in line with Melchizedek.”

It seems that this cult was in competition with the Levites and later on with the Pharisees and Sadducees. Jesus was a nominal Pharisee but they iced him out of their club. Therefore it seems like the Melchizedek cult latched on to him although there's zero mention of them elsewhere except in a few verses in three chapters n the book of Hebrews.

The whole thing is silly. Think about it. Jesus is supposed to be either God himself of God's son. Yet by making him a priest of some ancient guy's cult he's giving up all of his godly powers. IMO it's one of the dumbest things in the New Testament.

 

I was looking forward to your promised daily post about Ramadan.

 

They aren't related to Abraham

...Concerning the two Arabian forefathers, we can say that Qahtan may be well identified with the Biblical Yoqtan, but Adnan seems to be rather legendary, and as allegedly is only one of Ishmaels' descendants -not even one of his twelve sons- he cannot be the ancestor of all the Northern Arabians. The geographic distribution of the Ishmaelites indeed leave a vast "empty" space between them and the Yoqtanite peoples, namely, the whole Central Arabia. The southernmost Ishmaelite tribe was Teyma', whose capital was located about 400 kilometres north from Yathrib (Medinah). Yet, Arab traditions assert that Ishmael was with his father Avraham in Mekka (that is more than 700 kilometres south of Teyma'), a claim that is utterly groundless, without the least hint of possibility to find any historical support. The only existing written record concerning the person of Ishmael is found in the Bible, witnessing that he dwelled in the region of Paran, north of Midyan. This account was written by Mosheh, who spent half of his life in the very land where Ishmael lived and had undoubtedly more accurate information than the Arab writers that invented the tales about Avraham and Ishmael more than 2000 years after Mosheh. The Scriptures as well describe Avraham's movements in a very accurate way, from his departure from Ur haKashdim to Haran, then to Canaan, his journeys to Egypt and Gherar, his expedition to rescue his nephew, and every place where he sojourned - none of them is in Arabia. He kept attached to his Akkadian family settled in Northern Mesopotamia and not to any allegedly sacred place in Arabia. Having described all Avraham's movements in detail, would Mosheh not mention a trip involving a distance over 1000 kilometres away from Canaan (and the same length for the way back)? And supposing, for the sake of argument, that Avraham actually travelled to Mekka, if Mosheh ignored such a journey it undoubtedly means that it was completely irrelevant, without any Divine purpose. However, such a trip would have been impossible, because Mekka did not exist in that period. Archaeology reveals that it did not exist before the 5th century c.e. The fact is that the name of Ishmael was unknown in Central Arabia in pre-Islamic times, and the Arabic form Isma'il, beginning with an aleph shows that it passed through the Greek and is not directly derived from the Semitic/Aramaic original name Yishmael, with an initial yod - the change of a consonant/semivowel into a vowel is explained only if a Semitic name has been translated into a western language and then from the western form into another Semitic tongue, which is the case of Hebrew into Greek and then into Arabic. Indeed, there is no mention of Avraham or Ishmael in any ancient Arabian inscription, neither Sabean nor Minean, nor Safaitic, nor Lihyanite, nor Thamudic and not even Nabatean. The Arabs got acquainted with the existence of Avraham and Ishmael only through the Jewish and Christian sources from which Islam drew its own scriptures. Therefore, according to overwhelming historical, archaeologic, scriptural and scientific evidence, neither Avraham nor Ishmael have ever been in Arabia from Midyan southwards...

Conclusion:

After a careful and accurate research about the origin and identity of the Arabs, we can distinguish the myths from the facts:

Myths:

1) Arabs are Ishmaelites: this is not true for the overwhelming majority of them. There are not written records by which not even a single Arab is able prove a direct descent from Ishmael. The alleged genealogies have been invented in Islamic times after some Nabateans converted to Judaism or Christianity discovered the possible link that they had with Ishmael, a name that was completely lost in Arabia and was translated from Greek sources.

2) Arabs are Semites: This is a relative truth - the Arabic language is Semitic, because its sources are ancient Semitic tongues spoken by both Sabeans and Nabateans. Also Ghe'ez and Amharic, languages of the Ethiopians, are Semitic, nevertheless the Ethiopian people are Kus-hites,(really mods) not Semites.

3) Arabic was spoken in ancient times: false, it is the most recent of all Semitic languages, and evolved from Nabatean, Sabean, Lihyanite, Safaitic, Thamudic and other tongues. There was not a single document written in Arabic until Roman times.

Facts:

1) Arabs are primarily Hamitic, with a relevant Semitic contribution.

2) Ancient Nabateans were mainly Kus-hitic. Although their forefather was Ishmael, he and his offspring married within the Kus-hite inhabitants of Northern Arabia, and were regarded as "Mušuri" (Egyptians) by the Assyrians, who did not recognize Arabs as a Semitic people.

3) Ancient Yemenites (Sabeans, Mineans and others) were of mixed Semitic/Hamitic stock.

4) The pre-Islamic Arabs had a Kus-hitic culture; they were mainly ruled by queens like the Nubians, Ethiopians and other Hamitic nations, and had a female-centred society.

5) Islam has reversed the original culture into a male-ruled society, yet not adopting a Semitic style but just imposing a system based on applying the opposite patterns to the previous social rules and customs.

Ancient Arabians had a great culture, that might have evolved into a modern civilization and a developed society like other peoples of the Middle East as the Jews or the Armenians, but their original culture was destroyed and their history was replaced by legends...

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Arabs.htm

 

The Arab Claim to Palestine because they are descendants of Ishmael:
By Robert Morey

The Arabs’ claim to the land of Israel rest entirely on three false assumptions:

• All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael.
• Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham.
• Since the Abrahamic covenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it.

Ten Historical Facts that refute these Arab claims:

According to the Torah, when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees, he went West to what is now called Israel (Gen. 12 ff.). He became a dweller in tents in that land. It was in Israel that God made a covenant with him for the land in which he was living at that time. It was in Israel that he fathered Isaac, Ishmael, and many other sons and daughters. Isaac was the only son of Abraham chosen by God to be the heir of the covenant. Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah to be offered up as a sacrifice to God.

The Torah is contradicted by Qur’an at nearly every point. According to Surah 2:119-121, Abraham and Ishmael did not dwell in tents in Israel but in the city of Mecca in Arabia. Together they rebuilt the Kabah and placed the black stone in the wall. It was Abraham who started the tradition of an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones at the devil, etc. Abraham took Ishmael (not Isaac) to nearby Mt. Mina to offer as a sacrifice to God.

Ishmael’s twelve sons were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. (Gen. 12:11-16) They intermarried with the local population in North Arabia and produced several nomadic tribes know as the "Ishmaelites."

It was prophesied in the Torah that Ishmael and his family would "live to the East of all his brothers." (Gen. 16:12) "And they settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria." (Gen 25:18 ) This broad area is the desert section East of Egypt in Northern Arabia toward the kingdom of the Assyrians.

The Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 8:22-24 cf. 7:1f, the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites. The identification cannot be made any stronger.

Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem long before Abraham or Ishmael were born (Gen. 10:7). Their cities and temples have been well documented by archeologists.

If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael as Muhammad claimed, where did all the original Arabs go? What happened to them? Who did Ishmael marry if the Arabs did not already exist? If Arabia was unpopulated, who built Mecca? Since he lived there, obviously it existed before he was born. The facts speak for themselves. The Arab people existed before, during, and after Ishmael moved started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia.

The descendants of Ishmael were scattered in Northern Arabia from the wilderness of Shur to the ancient city of Havilah. They were absorbed by the local tribes such as the Midianites (Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1; Judges 8:24). There is no historical or archeological evidence that Ishmael went south to Mecca and became the "Father" of the Arab race. Some modern Arab scholars admit that before Muhammad, Qahtan was said to be the "Father" of the Arab people, not Ishmael.

The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants. Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham. (Gen. 18:18-21)

Therefore the descendants of Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham do not have any claim to the land of Israel because they are not included in the covenant God made with Abraham. Only the Jews have any claim to the land of Israel.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-arabs-descendants-of-ishmael.htm

 

Was Ataturk a Muslim? Did he have any Zionist ties?

 

As I hope you know now, Ramadan is the month in which Allah SWT revealed the Quran to his final Messenger, Muhammad (pbuh).

*The Quran was sent as the final revelation to mankind, confirming the previous Holy Scriptures before it.

*Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word if God, told to Muhammad (pbuh) through the angel Jibreel (Gabriel).

*There are 114 Surahs in the Quran. These Surahs combine to incluse 6236 Ayah's - or verses.

*The Quran was revealed over a span of 25 years. It was never compiled in chronological order. The Quran you see today was compiled by Uthman (RA), the 3rd Caliph of Islam, in 651AD. The copy Uthman used was a copy of one of Muhammad's (pbuh) wives, Hafsa (RA).

*The Quran has not been changed to this day, the Arabic version is still the original.

*As Muslims, we are to memorize the entire Quran. This has been happening since the begining.

*The Quran was not translated into English until 1734 by George Sale. It was derived from the French translation.

 

Actually Moses' wife was a decendant of Ishmael, before Islam was formed, that is.

 

*Fasting is one of the Five Pillars of Islam, meaning it is an obligation to all Muslims who can do it.

*Muslims fast by not eating or drinking from sunrise to sunset, however it goes farther than this.

*During Ramadan, especially while actively fasting, Muslims are forbidden from commiting any sins. Commiting a sin, even a small lie, can negate the day you just fasted.

*The days a Muslims misses fasting during Ramadan can be made up later, by fasting the days missed/negated.

*Some Muslims fast during other times of the year as well, such as 6 days in Shawwal (10th month), and the 10th day of the first month Muharram (Day of Ashura). There is also a fast named after the Prophet David (pbuh).

*Many Muslims follow the tradition of ending ones fast with dates or water, like the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) used to do.

*Dates contain many nutrients and vitamins, which make them an excellent choice for ending ones fast as they help replenish any lost vitamins during the fast.

*Almost a quarter of the worlds population fasts during Ramadan.

*Fasting is not exclusive to Islam. It is practiced in a wide variety of faiths, including Bahai, Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, and Mormon religions.


*Yes, people do really fast all day in the desert

 

*If one unintentionally breaks their fast, they can continue and have it stay valid.

*If one intentionally breaks their fast, they must make up for it by fasting however many days they broke during Ramadan.

*A fast can be broken by eating, drinking, and having sex. Smoking, and committing other sins also nullify a fast.

*Muslims are allowed to break our fast if not doing so will result in harming ourselves, such as make us sick or dehydrated.

*People with health concerns are not obligated to fast, and can instead make up for it by doing other things.

*For those who cannot fast, they should instead do good deeds, such as feed and look after the poor.

 

1. Fasting: This is the obvious one. Fast all day for the 30 days of Ramadan. Eat before the sunrise, and after sunset.

2. Charity: One of the Five Pillars of Islam, Ramadan has a lot to do with charity. This is the month when we must show our greatfulness and generosity by donating to the less fortunate.

3. Praying: During Ramadan, there is an extra prayer, the Tarawhi prayer. Prayer is greatly emphasized during Ramadan and a way for us to keep our minds pure and get closer to Allah SWT.

4. Quran: Also encouraged during Ramadan, reading Quran keeps your mind occupied with Islam and Allah SWT, rather than temptations which may cause you to break your fast.

 

All caught up

 

I am still not 100% sure... Do you mean Quran and Hadith/Sunnah? Or are you refering to the "Mecca and Medina" verses?

The verses about war in the Quran refer to times of war. Remember, the Quran was delivered over a span of 23 years, during this time the Muslims were forced to fight many wars for their survival. The verses refer to only war time, not in general.

 

Was Ataturk a Muslim? Did he have any Zionist ties?

 

Serious question.

I had an imam tell me that Muslims cringe when Christians tell them that the Lord was born of a virgin Mary and died on the cross for our sins. Do you think that has something to do with why some Muslims go on Christian slaughtering sprees?

 

Did he use the word "Lord" or "Jesus"?

No. The Muslims who do attack Christians are just extremely intolerant and often uneducated and/or not mentally stable.

And usually these same people have no problem killing Muslims.

This is what I THINK. I am making assumptions here. Because I am not one of those Muslims who do that, or ever come in contact with a Muslim who does that to know what goes on through their heads. However I know people who have been around the Taliban recruiters and they told me the Taliban offers food and money as a way to recruit the uneducated and homeless people, as they are easier to persuade than others. So I feel I have some idea.

 

Well obviously the Imam used the word Jesus because unlike Christians, Muslims do not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

Ataturk was not a Muslim. He hated Islam. He tried to remove Islam from Turkey. So no, he was not a Muslim, rather an enemy of Islam. He made it clear when he said...

"This is Islam, an absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, a rotting corpse which poisons our lives."

As for him being a Zionist, I don't know. Haven't really cared enough to do any research, but was this claim the same claim made by Nazi groups in Armenia? This is a real question, not meant to be a joke or insult. I did a quick search and saw things about Armenians making this claim.

 

He should not cringe when he hears Jesus (pbuh) was born from the Virgin Mary... That was why I asked.

[19:20] She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"
[19:21] He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "

 

ar-Rahim

The Merciful

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al-Malik

The King

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He said Muslims cringe when they are told the Lord Almighty was born a virgin and died on the cross for our sins. It makes sense that they would feel that way, so I was asking if you think it's the cringe that is followed by the sword to innocent lambs of God.

 

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We're just going to have to go ahead and agree to disagree. With look in his eyes, when he told me that, I saw the rage of millions of Muslims slaughtering Christians. He almost twitched. And this is in America. I can't imagine what the reaction would be if Christians in radical Islamic countries went into their local mosques and asked the kinds of honest questions I asked, and expressed the honest beliefs I expressed, to the Imam and other Muslims.