Isn't Equality Ultimately in Women's best Interests?

Discussion in 'Women's Rights' started by ryobi, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    As usual, you take a generally true statement and look for an exception to it so you can put your fingers in your ears and yell "la la la la" in denial. The mental gymnastics you perform to avoid the truth are just astonishing. As everyone knows, the number of times that a man just can't fit into the workspace, but a woman could, is exceedingly miniscule. While the number of times that the man will be stronger than the woman is "usually".
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  2. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be hung up on men’s work being more important than women’s work. You don’t seem to realize that there are many men who don’t want to do that kind of labor. Because men are better at physical labor does not make their jobs worth more.
     
  3. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    That’s why I call it femiphobia....it’s not homophobia
     
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  4. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    "Important" has nothing to do with it. It's simply about how much work one can do. If, for example, the job is simply unloading a truck and putting the merchandise on the shelf, if the average man can do that job 150 lbs at a time, while the average woman has to do it 100 lbs at a time, the man will accomplish more in the same amount of time. Therefore, the labor that he is selling is worth more.

    I have never seen any indication that a higher percentage of women want to do that kind of labor. In fact, from all I've seen, the reverse is the case. But you seem to (intentionally?) be missing the point that enough men do in fact do those jobs to bring the overall average up above the average for women when it comes to total work output performed. And I speak about averages, because the "wage gap" is an argument based on averages. No one would argue that every woman makes less than every man in any given job, and neither am I arguing that every man outworks every woman in that job. So your constant search for the exceptions (and anecdotes like FoxHastings' janitors and nurses story) are irrelevant to the discussion, because the average is what counts here.

    Again, no one said their jobs are worth more. I'm talking apples to apples, when men and women are doing the same job. This is not a comparison of "men's jobs" vs "women's jobs". The comparison that I'm making concerns the work done while doing the same job.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  5. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    See how holding women accountable the way men are gets you labelled as a "sexist???"

    See how political correctness functions as de facto liberal censorship to stifle debate???

    In general, women are not doing equal work. Men tend to work harder than women. Feminists want women to be paid more for doing less work. That is not equality.

    Renee CHOSE to study education and she is complaining about what teachers make compared to people in other professions. If Renee wants to be paid as much as an engineer, she should have studied engineering so she could get a job as an engineer. However, instead of being accountable for the consequences of her actions and choices, she blames the patriarchy??? She blames men FOR HER CHOICES??? That s not accountability.

    And Renne has yet to address this question.

    So you believe that inequality that happened decades ago was unfair?

    How about this inequality that is happening today?

    For decades, liberals have claimed that discrimination blocks women from landing academic positions in STEM fields. However a paper published online by the National Academy of Sciences by Wendy M Williams and Stephen J. Cecil titled National Hiring experiments Reveal 2:1 Faculty Preference For Women on STEM Tenure Track found that in experiments with professors from 371 colleges and universities across the United States that science and engineering faculty actually preferred women two-to-one over identically qualified male candidates for assistant professor positions. [4]

    See how Feminists disregard evidence that does not fit their victim narrative???
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  6. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree with you that a person who can lift 150 pounds should be hired over the person who can only lift 100 pounds. I have no problem with that. That’s the same with any job...those who are good at their work should be the ones hired. Where we differ is the value of the work. You’re right most women don’t want to do heavy lifting jobs and neither do most of the men I know. But I am a teacher and I feel that teaching requires much more than just lifting 150 pounds, it has to do with the future of our country and being responsible for the education of our children. That should be a highly paid profession. The lifting is a male dominated job and teaching is a female dominated profession. Is it a coincidence that teaching is probably the lowest paid profession requiring degrees? But now ,” male” professions are opened to women and they are becoming drs, lawyers, engineers, cops, newscasters, politicians etc....and women have recourse when they find out that people doing the same job are getting paid less.
    But now that Education is Having a hard time getting good teachers they are beginning to pay more. My daughter is a high school counselor and earns close to $100,000 ...it wasn’t that way not that long ago.
     
  7. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I keep addressing the situation and you just don’t hear it. I don’t want to be an engineer nor do I want to be a ditchdigger. I wanted to be a teacher. That doesn’t mean that I should not fight for better salaries for teachers. I guess the converse is also true. My son-in-law Wanted to be a teacher but because of money chose to be an engineer. Being a mail he felt he had to make more money.
     
  8. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    And Renne has yet to address this question.

    So you believe that inequality that happened decades ago was unfair?

    How about this inequality that is happening today?

    For decades, liberals have claimed that discrimination blocks women from landing academic positions in STEM fields. However a paper published online by the National Academy of Sciences by Wendy M Williams and Stephen J. Cecil titled National Hiring experiments Reveal 2:1 Faculty Preference For Women on STEM Tenure Track found that in experiments with professors from 371 colleges and universities across the United States that science and engineering faculty actually preferred women two-to-one over identically qualified male candidates for assistant professor positions. [4]

    See how Feminists disregard evidence that does not fit their victim narrative???
     
  9. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    You keep posting the exact post and I have answered it . And as for your example where a male and female have the identical qualifications and most of the staff is male, I think it would be wise to hire the female for diversity.Did you complain when we had white male affirmative-action for 200 years? I know it’s hard for you to have to share the pie
     
  10. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    OK, so we agree here. The only thing I would add to this is that not only would I hire someone who can lift the 150lbs over the one who lifts 100lbs, but if I happened to hire both, I would pay the 150lb person more.

    Some educators do make a lot of money, but you have to make it "to the top" of the profession (college professors). That said, I'm pretty sure that the law of supply and demand applies here, as it does everywhere else. If there were fewer people who could teach children (by which I guess we're talking about K-12), then the pay would go up. To say that it "should be highly paid" is putting a value judgement on an issue which is, at its core, an economic one subject to laws of economics, not ideas about what "should be"

    Again, I would look at the supply vs demand before resorting to conspiracy theories.

    Yep, they can sue the pants off any company that pays men more than women just because they are women. So, it's clear to would-be sexist employers that it's cheaper to just obey the law than face the lawsuits.

    Which completely validates what I said above.

    Well, there you have it. And IMO, if we're talking about guidance counselors, $100,000 is overpaying them by a mile. I mean, why would anyone even want career guidance from a person who ended up as a high school guidance counselor? And that applies whether they're male or female. Might as well take life advice from Chris Farley's "I live in a van down by the river" character.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  11. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Obviously we have different values. You think loading a truck is more valuable than someone who guides a child for four years. Yeah what did they know. Being experts in colleges and adolescent behavior etc are unimportant,,,and more importantly they are therapists for kids who have all kinds of issues...including people with your sense of values.
    As I said I address new teachers all over the country and I have been doing that for the last 15 years and the number one complaint is they cannot get good teachers. Years ago women had few options so the best of the best became teachers now they are becoming engineers doctors lawyers accountants stockbrokers etc. wheee they can make money because money obviously means respect by people like you l Teachers tell me repeatedly that they are leaving not only because of the money but because of the lack of respect and you exemplify it
     
  12. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ.:roll: The only job I showed any disrespect for is guidance counselor, NOT teacher. But of course, any argument you present just HAS to include some accusatory Ad Hominem. Things you just pull straight out of your ass like "you think loading a truck is more valuable than someone who guides a child for four years", which I never said anything remotely close. If this is this how you conduct yourself in the classroom, I can see why you haven't been getting the raises you think you deserve.
     
  13. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't alive 200 hundred years ago and neither were you, and you never answered that post.
     
  14. greatdanechick

    greatdanechick Well-Known Member

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    And you are so right, I love it :)
     
  15. greatdanechick

    greatdanechick Well-Known Member

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    Where is your source for the statement "men work harder than women"? A claim like that requires a source... because it's crap. Women work JUST as hard as men.

    Renee chose to go into education (thanks by the way for that Renee!) and the question is WHY is that paid so much less than an engineer? Are you really trying to tell me that an engineer works harder than a teacher or does more valuable work?

    I think the increase in women in STEM-related positions is a pretty recent change. Part of that is because women have been busting our asses to get into those jobs for decades and it's paying off. More and more people are realizing that women are just as capable as men in those jobs. You still see way more men CEOs and upper management level jobs in many industries. The financial industry is getting better slowly, but is still very heavily male dominated the higher up you go. I'm agreeing with you that things are MUCH better than they have been historically, but I'm also saying it's not perfect yet. When there are just as many men teaching kindergarten as women, and just as many female surgeons then I'll believe you that feminism has won.
     
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  16. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I love your point ....when men are not ashamed to do women’s jobs, we will have succeeded. When little boys can play with a baby doll, when boys can jump rope, when boys don’t have to prove how macho they are, we will all be better off. More and more people want to have girls....because they can do and be anything. Boys are not as liberated yet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
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  17. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I guess you just want to avoid history as though it has no consequences. Because it becomes illegal to segregate blacks, do you think suddenly blacks are seen as equals? Because women could vote, they suddenly were able to go the Harvard? Forget 200 years ago....we can talk about 50 years ago.
     
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  18. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Sure...

    CONSAD Research Corporation 2009. “An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women” Prepared for The United States Department of Labor Employment Standards Administration Accessed August 23, 2015. http://www.consad.com/content/report...l Report.pdf

    Men tend to work more over-time hours. Women tend to work more part-time. People who work more over-time tend to be paid more than people who work part-time.

    Men tend to choose more demanding majors at university-like-STEM majors. Women tend to chose easier majors that are less demanding and more full-filling-like elementary education. People who CHOSE more demanding majors tend to be paid more than people who choose less demanding majors.

    Is majoring in Elementary Education as equally demanding as majoring in Physics???

    Is walking a mile as demanding as sprinting a mile???

    Majoring in something like Physics compared to majoring in something like Elementary Education is like the difference between sprinting a mile and walking a mile.

    A degree in Physics is like running a sub 4 second mile. Many people can walk a mile in 3 hours. Many less people can run a sub 4 second mile.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  19. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Of course, teaching is so easy......by the way these women were blocked from the "harder" professions....but now look. They suddenly got smart and chose harder professions that were denied them. What a coincidence medical schools and law schools are now half women. See what happens when the doors open for them. G I wonder why those men who are doing all this heavy labor don’t go to college and major in education. Yup it’s so easy being responsible for the future of the most valuable asset, our children. By the way I bet most of these physicists couldn’t handle a classroom . And I doubt if you could either
    I worked with a group in Virginia and many of the men were retired Marines and thought teaching would be so easy and they were getting eaten up alive by the kids.
     
  20. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, holding women accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices the way men are is quote "sexism"

    Apparently, equal accountability is quote, "sexism."

    Apparently, Renee has never made any bad choices because she is oppressed by the quote, "patriarchy" unquote
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  21. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I’ve made bad choices...I didn’t report an attempted rape because I was afraid to. I love the way you think women aren’t accountable for their actions, ...so silly. I think you just have victim envy
     
  22. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    This is getting ridiculous.

    When women commit the same crimes as men they receive a 63% reduced sentence and that is AFTER being many times less likely to even be prosecuted in the first place after they have been arrested. Is that accountability???

    You chose to study education yet you blame discrimination for making less than an engineer. Is that accountability???
     
  23. greatdanechick

    greatdanechick Well-Known Member

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    Teaching someone how to major in physics is harder than majoring in physics...
     
  24. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    You are so hung up On women getting lighter sentences but you miss what you should be doing. Maybe women are getting the fair sentences and men are getting unfair sentences. It’s like women getting paid less....I don’t fight for men to get paid less...I fight for women to get paid more. Don’t complain about lighter sentences for women, complain about harsh sentences for men...get it?
     

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