Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/28/jair-bolsonaro-wins-brazil-presidential-election

Two other things should be noted. 1) It has been widely suggested Bannon was involved.

https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/the-rise-of-neo-fascism-in-brazil-17573404

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-Fernando-Haddad-steve-bannon-trump-president

Though Haaretz is more blunt in it's opinion.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pr...i-political-theory-behind-bolsonaro-1.6581924

2) He was a nothing until he was promoted by these people and this promotion included using the internet to provide a completely false image of those he was opposing.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/27/americas/brazil-election/index.html

Bannon is now working with the far right in Europe to try and get fascism embedded there.

I don't know if this will harm anyone other than the people of Brazil themselves but it is making clear the very real dangers which we all have now to our democracies which the internet has unexpectedly made possible and that there is a strong intent from some in the US to spread fascism around the world.

Your opinion?

 

As the last of those who knew the ravage of far-right ideology in WW2 die off, societies are moving back to what the world was like before that conflict. More nationalism, protectionism and jingoism. Just what the world needs to be able to bring about another mass conflict.

 

The world is in the same situation as pre WW2 or certainly the West is. We have a long term depression and an economic system which is not working but which our politicians will not acknowledge. Our politicians cannot serve us. They are serving Corporate Power and hence there is the same lack of trust in the political elite as there was in the 30's. That seems to be the time when people are willing to go by emotions and can be pulled into blaming it on the other because our Political Elite are not dealing with the problem. They are pretending it is not there. In comes those who want to blame it all on the other and unfortunately too many willing to listen - made I think much worse with the ability to distort things with the internet. I cannot find it now but one of the things they did in Brazil was change the message on a tea shirt of a left wing feminist to suggest she was saying way out things. Of course we also have an issue with refugees as well - Jews then Muslims now....and we have far less organised the left trying to present an alternative. Not communism like then, certainly in the UK it is social democracy not that different on the left/right level that we had prior to neo liberalism. What I find interesting is that the 'centre' basically the 'centre right and centre left' seem much more concerned about the possibility of social democracy gaining power than of the far right - at least that is the case in the UK.

How do we change it?

 

The more nationalism and protectionism and folk-ism, the more likely a world war will erupt.

 

How can we have a world war now?

 

Sure can. Once one of the big three makes a mistake the others won't have any choice but to escalate. Think south china sea for example. Or eastern Europe in regard to Russia. Extreme nationalist all have a breaking point where they just say "**** it!" and become suicidal. Hitler, Mussolini and Hiro Ito all made the caculated decision to wage war. Their pride and nationalist euphoria made them do it. They didn't have to. Germany wasn't really overcrowded and in need of liebensraum. That was a nationalistic delusion. Italy didn't need to relive its old empire, that was also a delusion. As for Japan, they never really tried to negotiate, as they believed it would bring a lost of prestige for such a superior race and their god emperor.

It only takes one man delusion to bring about the one mistake that can plunge us back into a world war. Who will it be? Trump? Putin? Or Xi?

 

Widely suggested Bannon was involved?

But no real proof.....considering Brazil's problems.....maybe this is needed, since Lula left, and Rousseff was president it was all down hill since then.
Where's Lula? Sitting in jail, Rousseff?? Who knows, she should be next to Lula in jail.

Brazil is in freefall it's the wild west. You can't go anywhere in Rio without getting accosted, robbed, assaulted, or killed, similar in Sao Paulo.

The only "safer" places are in the deep south of Curitiba, Floripa, Alegre, Blumenau....

 

I am not sure I believe it only takes one person but I do know that Bannon is way up for some crazy war.

OK so back to my first question, how do we change it?

 

I'm not claiming to know a great deal about Brazil. Bannon has denied his involvement but it seems to be pretty widely known he was there. The previous president I understand should not be in jail.

Brazil was clearly having serious problems with the depression brought on by neo liberalism's failings.

This guy came from nowhere with the support of Bannon and according to Haaretz, US Evangelicals with their love of fascism.

so I hear. One of the easiest places for outside interference.

Do you also deny that Bannon is trying to get fascism implemented in Europe?

 

At this point? Nothing we can do really. Either they fizzle out by themselves (they're not getting any younger themselves) or it blows up and we wish for the best. Don't look at any politicians today for a solution, they're part of the problem...

 

Defeat globulism and all of its pus.

 

I am not sure of that. I still have hope for Corbyn. I understand that the left in the US and Europe are now starting to meet and work together - though the right have been at it for a long time. I am sure it was about a year ago I was reading about white nationalists moving to Hungary engaging in training camps and so on.

I think more is also needed to understand what they are up to. Not that that would stop people from moving towards them but it is easier to see what to do if you can see what they are up to.

I notice that evangelical Christians in Brazil are loving Bolsonaro.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...date-is-answer-to-their-prayers-idUSKCN1M70D9

I notice Bolsonaro went to Israel two years ago to be baptised in the river Jordan. He could be a religious nut. It did cross my mind that I hope any war they are after is not to do with Armageddon.

At the same time I know Chris Hedges strongly believes that Fascism in the US will be the Fascism of the Christian Right who are now in Government. I hear they also want a totalitarian Christian world. I can't see that people would be working on other countries if they are not after something bigger so they would possibly see a Christian world against the Muslim world which they apparently hate so it may not be as simply as just nationalism causing fights among other nationalists.

 

That is the other thing in which this time is the same as prior to WW2. There was hatred of Globalism then to. Problem is that rather than deal with the issues, and I would say a big one might be the failure of neo liberalism, people do not look at how to deal with the problems but instead put a face on them, making an 'other' to blame.

 

Sorry but Corbyn is a fraud. He's as much a part of the machine as the rest. We had those "Corbyn" type where I live and they do a 180 degree as soon as they have a taste of that sweet power. As for the left working together, that is also a sham. The left isn't a proponent of equality either unless you consider all workers being slaves to the politburo, freedom and equality.

What we needs are centrist, slightly left or slightly right. Not the all-in-left or all-in-right.

 

Corbyn does not want power. He never has. I do not think he is a fraud but I think he might not have the ability to stand up when necessary. He has already shown a weakness in this. However he is at the moment the only person who is gathering people to look again at what had almost become taboo ideas. I had really given up on England as they did not seem to have any left resistance to our continual move to the right and now with Corbyn the left in England seems to have woken up to politics just like the Indy Ref did to Scotland. Put it this way, I do not see England becoming fascist under Corbyn but under the Tory Party and even Labour under the 'centre left' I do see this as a possibility. I do not see the UK going to any war other than self defence under a Corbyn Government and so on. He also is very strong on democracy and open to the idea of bringing democracy to work in Capitalism. I have seen a couple of people saying what you said but I do not think they supported him or the move to the left to begin with. I will say I do not think he is PM material but I think it is not without possibility that he could lead the labour party in the right direction and save us from moving down the fascist route until a more appropriate person is available.

No that isn't true. For a start they are only just getting started so there is little on which to prove any sham and there are some good intelligent people there - again with strong beliefs in democracy - which probably works best in social democracy as, unless you put restrictions on it capitalism gets too much control over the Government and rather than working for the people, it works for Corporate Power and becomes what we have now, Plutocracies. You will remember for instance that after WW2, the idea that a company would become a monopoly would have people shrieking in horror as they recognised the risk to democracy.

Equal rights is a part of any democracy. That includes the Government taking care to look after minorities in order to make sure that they too have equal rights and are not harassed by the majority. Equality in the UK apart from equal rights has never been more that equality of opportunity. We do not have that at the moment as is seen as like yourselves we have virtually no social mobility.

possibly you are thinking of how communism was implemented. I am not.

One of the ideas at the moment is to make Capitalism democratic. That would mean that workers in a workplace would basically own it while working in it and be responsible for how it operated. They would decide what hours they worked and what pay they got and what they did with excess money. It is thought that this would result in better care of the environment. At the moment a business can be owned by someone living at the other side of the world. They do not care about leaking chemicals and what not into the environment. However if that environment was where they lived and very likely it would be people living nearby who would be working in the business, they would be far less likely to do this. Equally when some technological change happens so that the factory or whatever can make twice as much money with half the number of workers, they would likely decide to work half time for the same money rather than laying off half the workers given that they all would have a vote on it.

Well you are not wanting change then. Social Democracy was what was considered centrist in the UK prior to neo liberalism and I think you were not that different in the US. Obviously we live now in a very different world and ideas which come up will need to be ones which suit this world. Continuing neo liberalism however is just going to continue making ever greater inequality and destroy the Middle Class. I doubt if there is any way you can avoid a future of revolution against Tyranny if you continue with neo liberalism ...unless possibly with an authoritarian Government like fascism. (It has crossed my mind that that may be what the fascism desire is about as well).

And of course people continue with their right to vote so it would be their choice where Government found it's centre.

 

Oh my god! He's a politician of course he wants power!

And every despot "en devenir" says they don't want the power. They all say that they are humbly accepting the responsability to lead, out of the love of the population and country. It's only once we give them the power that we're in deep doodoo. You're quite naive if you think Corbyn is any different.

 

They've been at it since 1917... They'll soon create a new international politburo which in turn will dictate how each lesser leftist party should behave.

Minorities having equal right is good. Minorities imposing their values on the majority isn't. You can ask for tolerance but you can't ask acceptance. Acceptance implies the abandonnement of one own values. This is one of the main reason why the right is rising everywhere.

Capitalism is already democratic. If it wasn't then your friend Corbyn wouldn't have been elected. The problem isn't in the democratic process but in the imputability of those once elected. The only way you could change that is if you could negate human nature and greed, which also exist on the left side. Do you beleive Maduro, Castro and other "socialist" ever went without once in power?

I'm not in the US btw. I've been living in a left/center-left province all of my life (Quebec). We've just elected our first center-right majority government especially because the two left/center-left party tore each other out on the public place during the campaign. So much for cooperation.

 

Thinking Bannon is trying to get fascism started outside the US is absurd. A nationalist as opposed to a globalist is not fascism, given that globalism is what an oligarchy gave us.

Your perception is badly skewed and not accurate. At least on the issue I addressed above.

 

Here more:

 

More idiocy electing morons that will destroy progress.

 

What progress was there in Brazil?
I don't get the going full hard right either, but the left haven't been doing their job there for years.

 

That is your problem with projection. Some people went into politics to serve. Corbyn has never had any desires on having a position of power within the labour party. He has never wanted to be Leader, Deputy Leader or any such thing. He has been happy to be the person most often voting against the party whip.

The only reason he became leader of the Labour Party was because during the elections for a new leader and only a few minutes before putting in names was finished a Labour Member put his name in as the token socialist never expecting him to get more than a few votes. However Corbyn was very used to speaking to people having been at just about every protest meeting there had ever been so he went out and spoke to people, rather than doing the usual now of inviting a few of the converted in...and they liked him...and he became leader and he is perfectly happy to serve them. He has revitalised British politics.

 

Bannon is trying to get fascism organised in Europe. He has not even been pretending anything else though he did tell the French far right he was there so that they could teach him.

Steve Bannon’s Emerging Fascist International in Europe

Steve Bannon Wants to Lead Fascist Movement in Europe

Steve Bannon is on a far-right mission to radicalise Europe

Steve Bannon Is Done Wrecking the American Establishment. Now He Wants to Destroy Europe

Steve Bannon is plotting to take over Europe. We must resist him

Bannon's strategy aims to destroy the EU from within by electing MEPs who will advance far right populism. An anti-fascist movement must be built from the ground up to defeat him

and on and on. Do not try to tell me it is not Fascism he is trying to generate over Europe, I listened to the whole of the lecture I mentioned at the beginning.

 

"Hard Right?"

He just pulled 56% of the popular vote in the 5th most populous nation in the world. He's isn't "far right" or an "extremists" those making such claims are.

 

I guess I better jump in here to interrupt the leftist circle jerk. Look. You dont think those people in other countries can see whats happening in Venezuela, Elsavador, and Europe as a result of proggressive socialist policies? Shame on everyone for thinking Brazilians cant see the writing on the wall and this man is perfect. An old-school by the numbers hard arse that will not put up with children behaving badly

Gj Brazil.