Jane Fonda on If She Is ‘Proud of America Today’: ‘No!’

Trump's ideas are only 'radical' because of the leftist direction the country has taken over the past generation or so and he wants to stop the downward spiral as best he can. He, and millions of others, recognize that once you give up your basic freedoms to the government, or the bureaucracy, you'll need a revolution to get them back.

 

It's time to understand "the human condition".

https://www.humancondition.com/

Explains the divisiveness, alienation, and psychosis of human relations, eg, "we must upgrade our nuclear arsenal": Trump - despite the obvious risk of MAD.

Thesis: the tragedy of the 'human condition' arose when self-awareness (and hence search for knowledge by individuals) began to overlay previously unconscious instinctive (loving*) group behaviour. We had no choice but to become conflicted, angry and egotistical, when our own instincts condemned us for embarking on the "corrupting" (ie instinct denying) egotistical (individualistic) search for understanding/knowledge. (Recall the story of Adam and Eve and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden, after tasting the "forbidden fruit" (of knowledge).

* re "loving": I'm still grappling with this: the author claims latest research shows humans descended from loving, co-operative bonobos, not aggressive, competing-for-power chimps, but I think his explanation of the human condition still holds in either case, since we are all aware that others can also love, whether it's instinctive or not.
Note: apparently pre self-aware 'love' (first appearing c. 4.5 million years ago) arises in apes because, all going well, their off-spring experience seemingly unconditional 'love', over an extended period of time (cf other species), from their mothers who apparently get nothing in return...but the mothers' "love" is in reality instinctive (in pre-conscious times) to ensure survival of the species.

Fascinating stuff.

Meanwhile, while the required time passes to enable this knowledge to become widely understood, I suppose it's back to hating the Left or the Right.....

 

You do realize that Obama set records for turning away illegal immigrants.

Tell us the basic freedoms that you are so petrified of losing? Tell us about this downward spiral that has you so upset? Let me guess… You’re a white male

 

I understand that Trump is not all that serious about stopping illegal immigration.

 

At least "Hanoi Jane" has been consistent for the last 50 years.

 

Jane Fonda on If She Is ‘Proud of America Today’: ‘No!’

To be fair and balanced I suspect America not proud of Jane Fonda.

 

Ha! Good point.

 

But I’m sure most Americans are less proud of Donald Trump

 

I doubt that.

 

One has to reflect on the reasons the U.S. became involved in Vietnam. Bottom line, we were fighting to preserve the last remnants of colonialism. And, we were wrong to do that. The Vietnamese people had every right to autonomy in their own homeland. Neither France nor the U.S. had any right to impose themselves over those people. Jane Fonda may have used some media techniques that stretched legality, but she was right in her message.

 

But why was Vietnam divided into two countries, & by whom?

 

I'm not saying--& NEVER said--Trump should have gotten into a war with Turkey. I agree with most Congressional members, that Trump was incredibly stupid to pull out of Syria, create a power vacuum there, & basically agree to allow Turkey & Russia determine the fate of the Kurds & the future of that region between themselves. There was no need for war. The small American military presence there was maintaining a relative peace with very little effort or cost. Now it is another region of major conflict & suffering--all because of Trump & his thoughtless, knee-jerk reactionism.

 

It was senseless to get involved in this war, but the colonialism ended when France pulled out, I believe in 1955. We were not fighting to preserve colonialism. We were fighting based on the Domino Theory and a cold war mentality.

It is true the US provided some assistance to France, but this had nothing to do with supporting colonialism. It had to do with a quid pro quo for France joining NATO.

 

"Power vacuum" is a great neocon term. It is great humor to me to see liberals morphing into neocons.

 

A defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu and an agreement signed in Geneva. BTW, the Soviet Union and Peoples Republic of China attended this Geneva conference as did the US to protect their interests. As to 1/4 of the country being made a non-communist country there were a lot of people in Vietnam who did not want to live under a communist government.

Note that you object to Russia impacting the fact of the Kurds, but apparently don't see a problem with them impacting the fate of the Vietnamese. Care to explain this logic?

 

Well you are in for a brutal reality check when Trump is reelected in a landslide.

 

Some of what you say is true. The Vietnam War is a complex one from the standpoint of causes, management & participants. While it's true that Ho Chi Minh was a Communist, he was friendly toward the U.S. through WWII, & even tried working with the U.S. after that war ended, to gain Vietnamese independence from Colonial France. The U.S., afraid of Communism taking over, refused to work with him & supported the French colonialist return after WWII. Ho Chi Minh defeated the French militarily, but the U.S. helped divide Vietnam into N & S, Communist & "Capitalist." But the puppet governments of S Vietnam were every bit as corrupt & cruel toward its people as the Communist North. After Korea was divided, post WWII, S Korea was forced to develop a democratic form of government, & it became a model of success. But after Vietnam was divided, no one took the initiative to do that for Vietnam, not even the U.S. The history of American involvement in Vietnam is a complex & convoluted one.

 

I'm NOT a Neocon. But reality is that power vacuums can & do alter history. Syria was a prime example this week. I agree with Trump & Republicans who desire to extricate ourselves from these eternal wars in the Middle East. But there are ways to do that which don't disrupt the world, & there are ways to do it & wreck havoc on everyone involved. Trump chose the latter. Like the mad bull in the china shop, it will take a long time & a lot of effort to fix the mess he made.

 

Actually, I don't feel comfortable having Russia impact the lives of either. With Vietnam, U.S. hesitancy after WWII to help Ho Chi Minh seek independence from French colonialism, drove Vietnam into the Russian fold. So, we helped create the mess that resulted in that war. But, just because I feel our involvement in the Vietnam Quagmire was wrong & based on a false premise, doesn't mean I support the Russian alternatives any more than America's. I feel Vietnam should have never been divided in the first place, just as I feel the division of Korea was wrong as well.

 

Agree. Douglas MacArthur should have been allowed to win the war.

 

Didnt Obama imply America was not great given his first campaign slogan was ."hope and change "?

Why change if America was already great

 

No matter how "great" you are at any given moment, there's always room for improvement.

 

That’s the problem with extremists they can only think in black-and-white and nothing gray. Yes America can be great but that doesn’t mean there can’t be changes. It would be different if he said America is perfect

 

Take a poll now asking who is more dangerous to America, Donald Trump or Jane Fonda.....Trump wins by a landslide.