Jesus Christ and The Noble Qu'ran

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by delade, May 15, 2017.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course the golden rule is to help one avoid being treated poorly. "Judge not Lest you be Judged" "Do not do to others what you would not have them do to you".

    This is the basis of the Social Contract.
     
  2. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'd say that's more cultural and personal than due to the religion itself. People practice a given religion in quite a wide variety of ways, whether that's Islam or Christianity. Christianity has been terribly intolerant and violent throughout history; it's only very recently that the western world has settled down and quit warring with itself and outsiders over religion! Yet many are still Christian; they just practice it very differently.

    Same with Islam, of course. Outside of these backwards Muslim cultures, where they haven't learned yet that it's best to keep religion and state separated, Muslims are peaceful people who are not oppressing others. They still have their faults from certain perspectives, of course, as do the Christians, but they're not trying to conquer us either.

    They need to get beyond that conquering, warring, persecuting, theocratic history of theirs, just as the Christians seem to have done. It is cultural and personal in essence.
     
  3. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is so much wrong with accusing Jews of killing Jesus. I mean, for starters it's just not factual, since there was no Jesus as claimed in the gospels, which are not historical documents but stories from decades after the events they claim to describe. For another, going by the content of these stories, Jesus was supposed to die; it was his destiny and the means by which atonement of the sins of all mankind would be attained, rendering the act of killing a good and YHWH-planned thing. Anyone who believes in this crap ough to be thanking the Jews for killing their messiah and bringing them their silly salvation!
     
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  4. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    even if the most Jew-hating book of the NT is 100% factual, its insane to blame all the Jews of the world, all the Jews of Judea, or even all the Jews of Jerusalem for Jesus' death.

    when Jesus died, there were more Jews living outside of Judea than in it, so surely they can't be blamed.

    you also can't blame Jews who didn't live in Jerusalem, as only Jews in Jerusalem were involved.

    and of course not all the Jews of Jerusalem called for his death, as that would be hundreds of thousands of people.



    to blame all the Jews of the world back then, or all the Jews of Judea, or even all the Jews of Jerusalem, is nothing but hateful bigotry and loathing of Jews.

    only a BIGOT believes such crap.
     
  5. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not by accident, it was those Jews who cooperated with Rome who got blamed for the persecution and death of Jesus..
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  6. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    As it says in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (CEV) =
    "14 My friends, you did just like God’s churches in Judea and like the other followers of Christ Jesus there. And so, you were mistreated by your own people, in the same way they were mistreated by their people.

    15 Those Jews killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and they even chased us away. God doesn’t like what they do and neither does anyone else. 16 They keep us from speaking his message to the Gentiles and from leading them to be saved. The Jews have always gone too far with their sins. Now God has finally become angry and will punish them."

    Luke 11:50 (ERV) = “So you people who live now will be punished for the deaths of all the prophets who were killed since the beginning of the world."
     
  7. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    For some reason the Jews in the Talmud don't deny the existence of Jesus. They have a more favorable opinion of the devil than they have of Jesus.
    According to the Talmud the Jews hate Jesus with a passion. They say that they killed him using five different means of execution. They accuse him of all kinds of sordid behavior. They claim that they, the Jews, are the true Messiah.
     
  8. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says that the Jews killed Jesus. The Jewish Babylonian Talmud says that they used five different methods of execution to kill him. So are you calling the Bible and the Talmud lies? Which one of those sources do you say is the least credible?
     
  9. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I doubt any of the jewish characters in the OT ever existed either. From Abraham to King David. In fact, I doubt any of the history in the OT ever happened. It was just made up. Which means, Judaism is just a fake religion, invented to hold a tribe together. Which means Jews do not really exist today at all. They just think they exist. This means Ronstar is identifying with fiction. The history of his ancestors was a ruse. An identity based upon myth and creative stories stolen from earlier cultures. Fakes.
     
  10. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Didn't you just say that Jesus never existed? So how can a non-existent entity be a real god? And how can a non-existent entity be killed? I think the fairy tale would have been better if Yahweh had been killed off like some of the Greek gods. He was a nasty guy with no redeeming qualities.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You can't argue the meaning of one quote by simply switching to a different quote.

    Your new quote has obvious and serious limitations, as civilizations absolutely DO include judging others as a significant element.
     
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ?? I have no clue what you are talking about .. what quote ?

    You claimed:
    This is abject nonsense. The Golden Rule "treat others as you would be treated/ do unto others as you would have done to you" and various restatements of this rule ... Judge not lest you be judged, love neighbor as self, let ye who is without sin cast first rock ... is about avoiding being treated poorly.

    If you do not want others treating you poorly, then do not treat others poorly.

    Avoiding being treated poorly "IS" the whole point of the golden rule.

    "Judging others" - You do not understand the social contract.

    Rights end where the nose of another begins ... but, no man wants to be ruled over by another.

    The enlightenment thinkers posited that people form groups for social reasons but also for protection from harm. It does little good to be protected from harm from outsiders if one is not protected from harm from within the group.

    Codes of conduct formed. It does one no good if people within the group can violate codes with impunity. "We the People" then agreed to give an authority power .. but, (because no man wants to be ruled over by another) this power was to be limited only to acts which were injurious to others ... One has the right to do anything they want but those rights end where the nose of another begins.

    The social contract then gives an authority power to punish but, it also limits that power.

    When two people enter into an agreement (contract) - I will not kill you and your family if you agree not to kill me or mine ... there is then a moral obligation to uphold your end of the bargain = social contract.

    This is the agreement between citizens and each other and the authority which has power to punish for violations of the code.

    As can be seen - the golden rule springs naturally out of the social contract. Do not mess with me and I will not mess with you. Live and let live.

    If you do not want others forcing their personal or religious beliefs on you through physical violence (law), then do not force yours on others.

    The caveat is that - your freedoms end where the nose of another begins... . so it is not a universal ... someone can do what ever they want - as you posited.
     
  13. Dropship

    Dropship Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it means the snooty Jewish priests killed him, but the ordinary Jewish people lurved him to bits..:)
    "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him....
    "And the common people heard him gladly" (Matt 4:25,Mark 12:37)
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Your interpretation is like saying "if you don't want to go to jail, then don't rob a bank".

    And, that misses the point that there are underlying reasons for not robbing banks - reasons that are important in terms of the "social contract" you speak of.

    From the point of view of a criminal mind, your interpretation isn't bad.

    I'm just saying that there IS a deeper meaning to the golden rule than simply avoiding personal pain. In fact, it gives guidance on what the rules of civilization should look like.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you misinterpret what I was saying. I agree with you. The GR is super deep. It is one of the main principles on which the US system was founded and the Rule of Law. Hammurabi had this rule in his law code (1800 BC), Jesus said that this rule summed up the entire law and the prophets, Confucius and Buddha cited this rule .. apparently this rule is even in Islam (the worst violator of this rule).

    Unfortunately -our society is going away from this rule ..
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    oops - I get what you're saying and I agree.

    We seem to fail at being able understand the motivations of those living in circumstances that are different from our own.

    As for West Bank, I'm fairly sure that a Texan who had his land taken and his home bulldozed by a foreign occupation force would be every bit as upset as a Palestinian in that circumstance.

    The part I don't understand is how Abbas has kept the lid on it for over a decade - even being considered by the IDF as their partner in peace as ethnic cleansing gets carried out.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    700 km of apartheid fence - patrolled by an ever alert IDF helps to keep a lid on things. 6 decades of disproportionate force is also a factor.
     
  18. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I am working on a new O.P. that speaks of Yahweh and Allah.

    Yahweh. Obey like a slave. Allah. Submit like a slave. Do you see a difference?

    I find it strange that all-powerful Gods have a need or want of slaves, but if slavery is all that Christians and Muslims aspire to after death, I am sure glad I am a Gnostic Christian and see Jesus as not being of the same ilk as Christian and Muslim slave aspirers. Jesus said he came to serve man but I guess that he is not like his father. Thank God for that. :applause:

    In the arena of cultural evolution, the secular and humanist West has decided that Jesus wins the God Wars. Christians have gone along with revering the nice (sort of) God, Jesus, instead of his poor satanic father.

    If Muslims do not also go along with that archetypal prophet and savior Jesus, as being more authoritative than Muhammad, they will not survive and the religion will die.

    This is inevitable as the world will not allow open religious slavery, --- which is what Muslim and Christian ideologies promote.

    No?

    Regards
    DL


    On Muslim slavery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUOSIhg86oc

    On archetypal Jesus. https://clyp.it/lqeu3cku
     
  19. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    So you would reward evil actions as well as good actions would you?

    God does not seem to follow the rule he set up as he punishes evil actions with hell.

    Seems you would contradict God and common sense by rewarding evil instead of punishing it.

    Regards
    DL
     
  20. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    True but one of the main ingredients for culture and the personal comes from their religion.

    That survey was done of their religious views and not their culture or societies view.

    Only those of low morals will respect a slave holding ideology like Islam. If you are not sure they are slave holders, follow that link I put above.

    Regards
    DL
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The god that mainstream Jews, Christians and Muslims follow isn't a slaver. You may not like some of the aspects of those religions, but following their
    religious law is certainly no worse than having to follow the secular laws of man. And, our government isn't a slaver, either.
     
  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say anything about reward.

    The golden rule says nothing about reward, either.

    So, you'll have to explain your thinking on that.
     
  23. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Look again for the first time and wonder how many cows your next child bride will cost you if Islam ever gains power and Sharia becomes the law of the land.

    As to our governments, they have been owned by our oligarch owners forever. That means that you too are basically a slave.

    Strange you do not recognize the slave collar you have on.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

    Regards
    DL
     
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  24. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Do you follow the lave the sinner and hate the sin ideology?

    Would you turn the other cheek, so to speak?

    If so, you would be rewarding poor behavior.

    Do you allow yourself to hate the sinner instead of just the sin?

    Regards
    DL
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You need to get a grip.

    We have courts in the US today that allow Sharia law when agreed by the adversaries and within the limits set by our constitution.

    You just aren't identifying a problem that actually exists.

    And, no, in NO WAY am I a slave. My actions are certainly limited by the laws of our land (as is the case in ALL civilizations), but suggesting that has ANYTHING to do with slavery is just plain ridiculous.
     

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