Jesus Christ and The Noble Qu'ran

The golden rule specifies NO caveats. It is not a reward system - it is a rule on how one should lead a life.

In fact, the New Testament specifically directs us to turn the other cheek. If you want to make an argument against that behavior, be forewarned that you are opposing Christianity as specified by the New Testament as well as by other systems of religious belief.

I know Florida and others say you can kill people, but Florida is FAR from the Bible.

 

So are Christians.

You do not seem to recognize that reciprocity rules are reward rules as they show that reciprocity is fair play.

If you turn the other check, you are rewarding evil and doing evil by doing so.

As to opposing Christianity, I am a Gnostic Christian and am free to oppose an intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religion.

All moral men will condemn Christianity and its immoral tenets.

Regards
DL

 

[QUOTEadmore, post: 1067561321, member: 64140"]

You just aren't identifying a problem that actually exists.

[/QUOTE]

Are you deaf and blind?

On Muslim slavery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUOSIhg86oc

Regards
DL

 

Religious law (Sharia) hates individual rights and freedoms and liberty. Our system was founded on respect for individual liberty.

If you have no respect for individual liberty - you are welcome to that opinion.

 

I don't see your point here.

Sharia law is accepted in some US courts when the parties agree to that.

What part of that do you see as impacting individual liberty??

 

Religious law/theocracy - ignores individual liberty when making law.

Sharia is an anathema to the principles on which this nation was founded = Individual rights and freedoms "Above" the legitimate authority of Gov't.

In our system the authority of Gov't comes from "we the people" as opposed to "Divine Right/God" as was the case in the past.

There is no arguing with "God says so" as justification for law. There is no logical or rational basis for law on the basis of "God says so".

Sharia does not even consider individual liberty - never mind have any respect for it - It is law on the basis of "God says so".

Sharia is an anathema to the principles on which this nation was founded. The only reason why any court in the US would allow Sharia is because our Legal system no longer recognizes the founding principles as valid ... and this is a shame.

 

Christians promote US laws that conform to their religion. That's just who we are as a nation.

Remember that I pointed out that US courts accept Sharia only when desired by the two adversaries in the court case. That is, if a couple is getting divorced and there is an actual court case required, the two may request that Sharia law be accepted by the court.

That doesn't mean the court is co-opted or overridden in any meaningful sense. The court will still follow the constitution, for example.

I think you're getting upset about one of the freedoms that we in America actually have!!

 

Sharia should not be allowed - Period. Folks that agree with Sharia should be sent to education camps.

Christians that try to force their religious beliefs on others though political activism (Law) should be sent to education camps.

Belief in freedom is not belief in freedom only for things one agrees with. If you only believe in freedoms for things you agree with, then, you really do not believe in freedom at all.

The general rule is that freedoms end where the nose of another begins.

Do you understand this rule ?

 

Understand what? Your general rule is fine. But, that is a general rule.

There has never been any doubt that people allow their religious beliefs to inform their politics.

In fact, there is a significant movement in the US to allow churches, mosques, and synagogues to work as political action committees. And, that goes hand in hand with the efforts to allow religion to trump our laws in general - such as the religious exemption law that passed the Arizona House and Senate giving broad rights for citizens to ignore law when individuals see it as conflicting with there personal religious beliefs.

Also, I agree we should allow individual freedom when we can, but there is no real way to enforce a law requiring individuals to ignore their religious traditions when voting for persons and laws that govern our society.

For example, Muslims and fundamentalist Christians want government to enforce their views on abortion - views informed by their religious beliefs. And, arguments outside of religion (of science, for example) are seen by them as essentially irrelevant - in fact, as irrelevant as I think their religion should be when it comes to my own freedom.

 

no, Islamic arbitration in civil cases provided mutual consent is admissable but it isn't an automatic legal ruling until it is legally endorsed or denied based on existing american jurisprudence by the courts.

The idiotic idea that sharia law will usurp or even co=exist in America is spouted by those whose ideas of what the constitution is and what it stands for are as warped as any religious fanatic, let alone raging friggin white national bigots.

 

I pointed out limits.

And, yes, I totally agree that Sharia will not replace any significant part of American jurisprudence.

IMO, we're not having any problem related to Sharia in the US.

And, we will continue to allow people to vote - regardless of whether they tend to be informed by some form of religion.

 

Obviously people let their religious beliefs influence their politics. This is a function of ignorance and/or desire to control others. You seem to want to claim this is a good thing - "Religious law preferred to secular".

I claim this is an anathema to a system where individual liberty is "above" the legitimate authority of Gov't. Obviously we can not know why someone is casting a vote in a referendum but - at least we could educated them. We could also base our immigration preference on the principles on which this nation was founded - respect for individual liberty.

You may prefer a quazi totalitarian theocratic nanny state. You are welcome to this opinion - I just do not share it.

Authority of Gov't comes from "we the people" in our system - not God.
Gov't power is to be limited.

My question to you is then "limited to what" ?

 

You and I are not going to make progress in an effort to make people realize there is no God. Beyond that, I don't even believe that religion holds no place - regardless of whether there actually IS a god.

I agree that we can't allow religion to dominate democratic government. For example, the religious "freedom" bill passed by the Arizona legislature is absolutely and totally unacceptable, as it provides a basis for ignoring major portions of long established law - law that Christians in Arizona attempted to usurp.

Again, we aren't going to eliminate religion in general or any specific religion. But, I don't believe it is all that important to try. We just need to work out our issues as the democracy we are, following our constitutional precepts of equality and individuality and understanding that there is a divide between church and state.

 

Why did you say this ?? The issue has nothing to do with dictating what people should or not believe in relation to their personal deity.

The issue is where the authority of Gov't comes from.

Option 1) Some religious text (God)
Option 2) We the people.

Just because "do not kill" happens to be a religious moral code - does not mean that this is the reason why we have "do not kill" in our law or that "do not kill" is based on a religious belief.

What society - religious or atheist - regardless of religion in the case of a religious society - does not have "do not kill" ??

We do not need "religion" to come up with rational for giving an authority power to punish people for killing others within a group/society.

"When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.-- John Adams, from Rufus K Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief"



"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88 ) , from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258"

The discussion that we are having "was" one of the primary discussions of the founders.

They wanted to get religion out of Gov't (and in particular the Christian religion) because:

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82"

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816"

 

I don't believe anything I've said disputes that our nation is (and rightly should be) democratic, not based on religion. The problem isn't as blatant as that. Instead it shows up when we have people who are religious and express their religion through democracy. For example, they may believe that their religion should exempt them from various laws (such as the congress of Arizona), or when people believe their religion means they must use government to prevent women from using prophylaxis or having abortions, or when they believe that science must be blocked, as it leads to ideas not supporting their religion, etc.

I'm not saying we NEED religion (although it's possible that religion moderates the unacceptable behavioral tendencies of some % of the population).
I'm saying we HAVE religion in the form of the beliefs of the members of our population.

 

I do not disagree with anything you have said above. I thought you were arguing that theocracy would be better than secularism.

 

I might have to disagree with you a little. In Exodus 34:1 it reads, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest." God told Moses to hew two tables of stone, like unto the first, which Moses broke...

 

Are you saying that Moses broke the stone tablets that he chisled out in Exodus 34:1?

 

4:1
O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah, through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.

4:2
And give to the orphans their properties and do not substitute the defective [of your own] for the good [of theirs]. And do not consume their properties into your own. Indeed, that is ever a great sin.

4:3
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].

4:9
And let those [executors and guardians] fear [injustice] as if they [themselves] had left weak offspring behind and feared for them. So let them fear Allah and speak words of appropriate justice.

4:10
Indeed, those who devour the property of orphans unjustly are only consuming into their bellies fire. And they will be burned in a Blaze

4:11
Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

4:12
And for you is half of what your wives leave if they have no child. But if they have a child, for you is one fourth of what they leave, after any bequest they [may have] made or debt. And for the wives is one fourth if you leave no child. But if you leave a child, then for them is an eighth of what you leave, after any bequest you [may have] made or debt. And if a man or woman leaves neither ascendants nor descendants but has a brother or a sister, then for each one of them is a sixth. But if they are more than two, they share a third, after any bequest which was made or debt, as long as there is no detriment [caused]. [This is] an ordinance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing and Forbearing.

4:13
These are the limits [set by] Allah, and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted by Him to gardens [in Paradise] under which rivers flow, abiding eternally therein; and that is the great attainment.



9:119
O you who have believed, fear Allah and be with those who are true.

9:120
It was not [proper] for the people of Madinah and those surrounding them of the bedouins that they remain behind after [the departure of] the Messenger of Allah or that they prefer themselves over his self. That is because they are not afflicted by thirst or fatigue or hunger in the cause of Allah, nor do they tread on any ground that enrages the disbelievers, nor do they inflict upon an enemy any infliction but that is registered for them as a righteous deed. Indeed, Allah does not allow to be lost the reward of the doers of good.

9:121
Nor do they spend an expenditure, small or large, or cross a valley but that it is registered for them that Allah may reward them for the best of what they were doing.

9:122
And it is not for the believers to go forth [to battle] all at once. For there should separate from every division of them a group [remaining] to obtain understanding in the religion and warn their people when they return to them that they might be cautious.


9:123 O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.


9:124
And whenever a surah is revealed, there are among the hypocrites those who say, "Which of you has this increased faith?" As for those who believed, it has increased them in faith, while they are rejoicing.

9:125
But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it has [only] increased them in evil [in addition] to their evil. And they will have died while they are disbelievers.

9:126
Do they not see that they are tried every year once or twice but then they do not repent nor do they remember?

9:127
And whenever a surah is revealed, they look at each other, [saying], "Does anyone see you?" and then they dismiss themselves. Allah has dismissed their hearts because they are a people who do not understand.

9:128
There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you and to the believers is kind and merciful.

4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

3:53
Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."

3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

3:56
And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."

 

[4.171] "the Messiah, Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary] is only an apostle of Allah..far be It from His glory that He should have a son..

19:8
He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when my wife has been barren and I have reached extreme old age?"

19:12
[ Allah ] said, "O John, take the Scripture with determination." And We gave him judgement [while yet] a boy

19:19
He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy."

19:20
She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"

19:21
He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "

Luke 1:30
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luke 1:31
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Luke 1:34
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

 

4:171 word by word...


yāahla (O People) l-kitābi ((of) the Book!) lā ((Do) not) taghlū (commit excess) fī (in) dīnikum (your religion) walā (and (do) not) taqūlū (say) ʿalā (about) illā (except) l-ḥaqa (the truth) innamā (Only) l-masīḥu (the Messiah) ʿīsā (Isa), ub'nu (son) maryama ((of) Maryam), rasūlu ((was) a Messenger) l-lahi ((of) Allah) wakalimatuhu (and His word) alqāhā (which He conveyed) ilā (to) maryama (Maryam) warūḥun (and a spirit) min'hu (from Him). faāminū (So believe) bil-lahi (in Allah) warusulihi (and His Messengers). walā (And (do) not) taqūlū (say), thalāthatun ("Three);" intahū (desist) khayran ((it is) better) lakum (for you). innamā (Only) l-lahu (Allah) ilāhun ((is) God) wāḥidun (One). sub'ḥānahu (Glory be to Him)! an (That) yakūna (He (should) have) lahu (for Him) waladun (a son). lahu (To Him (belongs)) mā (whatever) fī ((is) in) l-samāwāti (the heavens) wamā
(and whatever) fī ((is) in) l-arḍi (the earth). wakafā (And is sufficient) bil-lahi (Allah) wakīlan ((as) a Disposer of affairs). lan (Never) yastankifa (will disdain) l-masīḥu (the Messiah) an (to) yakūna (be) ʿabdan (a slave) lillahi (of Allah) walā (and not) l-malāikatu (the Angels), l-muqarabūna (the ones who are near (to Allah)). waman (And whoever) yastankif (disdains) ʿan (from) ʿibādatihi (His worship) wayastakbir (and is arrogant) fasayaḥshuruhum (then He will gather them) ilayhi (towards Him) jamīʿan (all together).


يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَا تَغْلُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلَا تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلَّا الْحَقَّ ۚ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ ۖ فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ ۖ وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ ۚ انتَهُوا خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ ۚ إِنَّمَا اللَّهُ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۖ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ ۘ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۗ وَكَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلًا - 4:171



4:171 word by word...
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=171


Moshin Khan "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs." http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=171


Is it really a good idea to 'just trust' a translation from Arabic to English if we do not know ANY Arabic??

(2:116:5) sub'ḥānahu Glory be to Him

(4:171:39) sub'ḥānahu Glory be to Him!

(2:116:5) سُبْحَانَهُ
(4:171:39) سُبْحَانَهُ


http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=sbH#(4:171:39)


(Far Exalted is He) above...

above : (8:12) fawqa فَوْقَ (looks like 666 upside down)

The biggest war starter that was in Islam.. 'Far be it that Allah should have a Son'...


http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=above


Nothing but trouble makers for absolutely NO reason.. Translated from Arabic to English and to other languages... From this, it is clear that a direct addition was included into the Arabic true translation, and how Arabic reading and speaking people did not catch this is still a question..

Who were in charge of the Arabic Text Translations from the original Arabic Texts?? We know that they have been buried alongside their fathers, (May Peace be upon them) and so they could not have been in for the long run. What might have they thought when adding such 'wrong' translations??

Who from that time is reaping any rewards for such translations? Like I said, they have all fallen asleep in the grave. And besides, what sorts of rewards can ANYONE receive with such translations? Only rewards of violence and wars and fights and quarrels... How can anyone or any Nation benefit financially with wars, fights, quarrels and tumults??

And so we see what living and defending 'lies' procures. Nothing but damages and pains and losses. What a catastrophe a little word mistranslation can do...

Far Exalted is He above such things. Bismillah.

Whole entire Islamic Nations and States defending a 'lie'? I do not believe such things is possible.

Psalm 125:3
"For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity."

Proverbs 29:2
"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."

Proverbs 11:10
"When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth: and when the wicked perish, there is shouting."

Proverbs 28:28
"When the wicked rise, men hide themselves: but when they perish, the righteous increase."


Righteous: http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleConcordance.aspx?dw=righteous#

 

So without the misunderstandings, lack of knowledge, hearsays (heresies), mistranslations, misinterpretations of Holy Texts, what are we left with? People's own choices on how they want to treat others.

 

Who put the Koran into numbered chapters and verses and when did they do it?

 

But regardless, we must always and daily 'fight the good fight' because life isn't full of wonderful people with loving hearts...


Acts 20:29-31 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

2 Timothy 3:5-9
"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."

silly =
1133 [e] gynaikaria γυναικάρια weak women

idle or foolish woman; a little woman (fragile)


laden =
4987 [e] sesōreumena σεσωρευμένα

heap, load.



led away =
71 [e] agomena ἀγόμενα

be, bring forth, carry, let go.



lusts =
1939 [e] epithymiais ἐπιθυμίαις

passion, desire, lust, desire, craving, longing, security, false hopes



divers =

4164 [e] poikilais ποικίλαις,

diverse, manifold. variegated

These so called Godly men enter into fragile and silly women's homes to lead them away by smooth talking to their senses into accepting something they know they shouldn't. And sometimes a few visits leads to a few more to a few more to have the woman become more 'comfortable' with his presence in her home.. What the so called Godly man might try to advance onto her is truly unGodly. And remember that these men do not think too much about 'sin' or sexual intercourse as 'sin'. Those 'relationships' do not have to be for a very long period of time, nor does it have to end with marriage. Such are the ones whom these women are being led away by... Led away from Christ and led into captivity again..

 

I'm not too aware.. Sorry.