John 6 and what Jesus was saying to his disciples

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Felicity, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ...subtitled..."Why I believe in the Catholic Doctrine of Transubstantiation"

    Years ago, on another forum, I proposed a discussion concerning the reading of John 6. The perspective of the post was to be considered among Christians, and was to discuss the exegesis of John 6, so any nonsense or flaming concerning dismissing the Bible or belief in God will be off topic and I'd prefer those interested in real discussion simply ignore flame-bait.

    The following is excerpts from that opening post:

    (emphasis mine)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The disciples were angry. Jesus had fed them with the miracle of the loves and they wanted more—more bread—more miracles. Jesus said he was the TRUE bread from Heaven and that HE gives life to the world. Confused, they murmured isn’t he Joseph’s son? How can he say he came down from heaven when we know his mother and father? But Jesus said more...

    He said....

    I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

    52
    The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"

    53
    Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

    54
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

    55
    For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

    56
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

    57
    Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

    58
    This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

    59
    These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

    60
    Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

    66
    As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.




    So the Questions are:
    1) What was the “saying” that was hard to accept?
    2) Why did the disciples leave Jesus?
    3) Why did Jesus let them go?
     
  2. WanRen

    WanRen New Member Past Donor

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    The Bible is very clear no doubt, for the none Catholics such as Judaism the reason is they do not accept Jesus is because they have a different criteria for the Messiah and one of the most demanding criteria is that the Messiah will establish the Kingdom of Israel the earthly kingdom of Israel and the rebuilding of the Solomon temple which means that the Muslim Al Aqsa mosque has to come down and all nations will have to submit to Israel. Jesus is very clear the kingdom is not of this earth but that in Heaven as long as Judaism do not accept Jesus they will always deny him no matter what proof or evidence is presented.

    For other Christian sects their opposition is mainly against the authority of the Catholic church.

    Islam is against everything and Islam want to establish their own false and distorted facts.

    It is okay all these are naturally because humans are endowed with freewill. That is why our life here on earth is a pre requisite to prepare us to enter Heaven it is like being in a university if students fail to graduate from the university they do not get their diploma or degree, university students will have to make tough decisions to study hard or not to study hard.
     
  3. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am focusing on John 6. In John 6, these were disciples, people willing to hear Jesus' teaching. He had fed them the night before with the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes, and they were eager for more from this teacher. Indeed, the Jews of the time were not expecting a Messiah that was born in poverty and persecuted and killed by his own people and by the Roman authorities, but specifically, they referred to a "hard saying" that they were unwilling to accept. I believe it is very clear what that "hard saying" is.

    I agree that much of it comes down to the question of authority--but I also believe that the Bible is clear about authority as well. For those Christians that claim the Bible is the sole authority on matters of faith and morals, I suggest they read more of the Bible. It explicitly states it is not.
     
  4. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yet none of this supports the Catholic notion of having priests mutter some prayer, presumably in the mystical, magical language of Latinum, to magically turn little bread wafers into "spiritual flesh" or some such silly thing and then feed it to gullible morons.
     
  5. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    "The bible" never once refers to itself, since it didn't even exist as such when the texts in it were written :laughing:
     
  6. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    Jesus often spoke in parables and most disciples followed him because they were amazed at the miracles he performed in front of them and they were obviously disappointed by his arcane teachings which were hard to follow and many disciples may have associated the verses in John 6:52-66 with cannibalism by taking them literally and Jesus was not very keen on explaining what he really meant and he was rather impatient with those followers who thought that he was a magician or entertainer of sorts.
     
  7. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You'll have to eat your words on that...

    Jn 20:30
    Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;


    Jn 21:25
    But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written
    .

    Still laughing?
     
  8. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you think Jesus didn't mean it literally? Then the disciples that left, left under a misunderstanding of Jesus' words? Do you think Jesus would let people leave him on a misunderstanding? He said "unless you [do this] you do not have life in you." Do you really think the Merciful God made Incarnate would let confusion send disciples to hell?
     
  9. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    The last supper,

    Was the bread "literally" his body as he said it was ?
     
  10. junobet

    junobet New Member

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    If you read John 6 in the context of John 4 you might easily come to the conclusion that Jesus did indeed not mean it literally but metaphorically. This wouldn’t be surprising: Jesus quite often taught talking in parables and metaphors.

    Maybe they left in disappointment because they realized that Jesus didn’t plan to send them actual Manna from heaven but spiritual food. Just like the Samaritan woman Jesus meets at the well in John 4 these disciples may have hoped that Jesus’ living water would spare them the hassle of going to the well every day. They may also have left in disappointment because they expected the Messiah to erect a mighty kingdom on earth rather than promoting his own execution so that we might reach the heavenly kingdom. The Samaritan woman finally seems to get what the ‘living water’ is about, but alas, some people take more interest in material than spiritual sustenance.

    Personally I don’t think the Merciful God made Incarnate would send anybody to hell. He came to save the world. It’s one of the points I disagree on not only with many Catholics but also with very many of my Protestant sisters and brothers. All of us think that their position on this and on other questions is founded on correct interpretation of the scripture and probably feel in their heart that it is right. In the end each of us will have to follow their conscience.

    I know and accept that many Catholics would not want to share the Eucharist with a Protestant like myself, who doesn’t believe in in the Catholic Doctrine of Transubstantiation. They must do what their conscience tells them. My conscience tells me to invite every Christian to share Eucharist with me, because I believe that the Lord’s Church doesn’t begin with Doctrines but where two or three gather in His name (Matthew 18:20).
     
  11. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, not laughing. More annoyed at your wilful ignorance. Those are two self-references from one "book" (biblion - see below) that much later went into the bible as we know it today.

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/biblion.html

    Biblion
    ...
    Word Origin
    a diminutive of biblos

    Definition

    a small book, a scroll, a written document
    a sheet on which something has been written
    a bill of divorcement
     
  12. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    that leading of the thread is 'trolling'.

    The disclosure of being biased and of ill regard to others human beings having an opinion is of bigotry and the impossing of oppression, by a bigot!

    but i will assist in educating the egotistical about john 6
     
  13. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    that all are 1 with nature (god itself): we are eating, breathing, living
    they learned that the one called church, peter, is the adversary
    Because they wanted to call him king (christ) and he knew he aint (was not)

    ie... the adversary (liars) are who discount the wisdom of jesus
     
  14. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes. Exactly. That passage is known as the institution of the Eucharist.
     
  15. montra

    montra New Member

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    In the end, all of his disciples forsook Jesus. Did this send them all to hell? No.

    I find it interesting that Jesus did not try to take the route of an apologist, yet most Christians do. Not only was it not enough for Jesus to say that they should partake of his flesh, he then raised the offense by saying they needed to drink his blood, a clear Mosiac violation.

    I think that what Jesus was doing was to seperate those who loved him from those that had other reasons for hanging around him. For example, when Jesus looked at his disciples after all of this as most had left him, he looked at them and asked if they would leave also. Peter retorted, to whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life. At this point, the disciples had fallen in love with Jesus and trusted him implicitly no matter what offense he presented. It is akin to God asking Abraham to go sacrifice his son on a mountain. In the end, the question is, who do you love more?

    Even at that, Jesus reminded them all that one of them still had a "devil". There seems to be one in every crowd.
     
  16. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, but Jesus went waaaaayyy out of his way to make it clear he was NOT speaking metaphorically. Not only did he repeat it over and over as he saw them murmuring, the very words he used SPECIFICALLY referred to consuming food that was literal. He clarified using a word that means gnawing on and chewing--not merely taking into oneself.



    Well certainly, but in John 4 he made sure she understood, didn't he? She did and went and brought a whole town to Him with her.

    I agree that that is part of it. What Jesus asks of us is hard. They specifically said it was a hard teaching, and what was that teaching? That you must eat his flesh and drink his blood--literally. That is why they left ultimately. They would not accept Jesus at his word.


    That is true also. But John 6 is at a different level entirely.


    Agreed. People CHOOSE it because they refuse to hear what God is saying. They refuse his "hard teachings."

    Are you suggesting there is no Hell?

    Do you really think God abandoned his children to their own ignorance? He is the good Shepherd. He does not abandon his flock to wander the wilderness without guidance.
    ]
    The not admitting non-Catholics to the Eucharist is a pastoral matter. It is to protect the non-Catholic from sinning against God out of ignorance of what their "Amen" means in context of the Sacrament.

    1 Cor 11
    [24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
    [25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
    [26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
    [27] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
    [28] Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
    [29] For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

     
  17. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    which is a bs interpretation of institution, not god, not jesus, not the good of life


    26 Jesus answered them and said, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were satisfied;

    27 work not for the food that is perishing, but for the food that is remaining to life age-during, which the Son of Man will give to you, for him did the Father seal -- [even] God.'




    that's the bread, the knowledge 'to await'



    .
     
  18. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    that you are literally eating of 'gods' body, he and us all, as ONE with all


    literally!!!!

    absorb, intake

    words build bridges that last to the ages
     
  19. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agreed...they did leave him at the Crucifixion (except John who was there at the foot of the Cross). However, all of them also knew what they were doing when they did it, and we must remember Peter's repentance to the Risen Christ when Jesus told Peter to "feed his flock."

    Are you suggesting Jesus was "messing with them?"

    John 6 said he already knew. [64] But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

    I agree with that, but implicit in this way of reading it--that Jesus did NOT mean one must literally eat his flesh and drink his blood--you are saying that Jesus was pretty much being a jerk and messing with the insincere believers. That simply doesn't fit with the picture of Jesus of the Bible. He was very inclusive and forgiving.

    Do you believe he was being a jerk to make a point?
     
  20. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    I doubt it.. That would be too creepy. I think the words of Jesus were spiritual food and drink... at least that seems to be the case over and over again in scripture... so man would not thirst.
     
  21. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hence...you would be one to walk away. Correct? That's why many of Jesus disciples left him. They were unwilling to accept Jesus at his word. His teaching was "too hard."
     
  22. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Christianity is not Pantheistic.
    From: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pantheism/#NatIdeRelIts
    (1) Substance identity. For Spinoza the claim that God is the same as the cosmos is spelled out as the thesis that there exists one and only one particular substance which he refers to as ‘God or nature’; the individual thing referred to as ‘God’ is one and the same object as the complex unit referred to as ‘nature’ or ‘the cosmos.’
     
  23. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    No I would have understood that the teaching of the Christ were food and drink as they are elsewhere in scripture.
     
  24. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe it's worth coming back to this now since the Last Supper and Peter's repentance have come up.

    Jesus demonstrated the ritual of the Eucharist at the Last Supper. He showed his twelve what must be done. In fact, what occurred at the Last Supper, is exactly what the priest says at the Consecration of the bread and wine--that is when Catholics believe the miracle of transubstantiation takes place and we share in the once and eternal sacrifice of Christ's Body and Blood.

    Furthermore--When Jesus, the Risen Christ, met Peter on the shore of Sea of Tibe'ri-as after his death and resurrection....

    John 21
    [13] Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish.
    [14] This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to the disciples after he was raised from the dead.
    [15] When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
    [16] A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
    [17] He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.


    Jesus told Peter to "feed his sheep." That is why apostolic succession is so important.
     
  25. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Jesus said, "Whosoever drinketh of this water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life" (John 4:14). That water, of course, is his Gospel, which is the knowledge of how to "grow" into "everlasting life." He went on to tell us that he even personifies that water by saying "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink, (John 7:37)." In other words he is saying, If any man thirsts for spiritual knowledge, "I am that water," which means he is the way, the only way to salvation, and is, therefore, the Messiah. (Cf. Rev. 7:15-17--"the Lamb. . .shall lead them unto living fountains of waters.)

    Metaphors in the Bible.

    http://www.biblesecrets.org/METAPHOR.htm
     

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