Just like school

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by WillReadmore, Jul 31, 2020.

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  1. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those are your words and I responded to your words. Can you not just be civilized, stop making absurd conclusions, and stick to the question? Do you know what the term "absurd" means?
     
  2. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, the guy gives a percentage and then imagines the result of that percentage without any statistic to support it.

    It's a crazy system alright.

    Maybe someday they will explain it to us.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The article quotes specific results from a scenario that is incredibly close to the question of in-person school.

    I dont' see a legit complaint against that. Are you actually suggesting that we should actually open schools and see what the results are?

    THAT is something that science would not do. There are ethical restrictions on science doing experiments like that on human beings.
    What is it that you need to have explained??
     
  4. Antiduopolist

    Antiduopolist Well-Known Member

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    If out of touch with reality.

    It's true. Ditto.

    Of course.

    ChiFlu real. Hoax around it a hoax, and a VERY dangerous one - MUCH more dangerous than the ChiFlu itself.
     
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  5. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    using this post as a springboard here. Normally states determine liability in their statutes, because its their laws that get breached inducing the suit and their courts that hear the cases.. It makes no sense to say that Governors will be defining the guidelines under which covid will be fought with their emergency orders, while Congress iis handing out the liability protection to business that may be accused in court of breaching them. For example, If Congress had made a national mask policy requiring businesses to ban unmasked patrons, then it makes sense for Congress to offer liability protection under conditions that suit them when a civil breach is charged. If Congress had passed a national shut down, then Congress should decide about the civil penalty to a business that disobeyed its law and whether liability shield should exist.

    But Congress and the President have wisely decided that one size does not fit all with regard to emergency measures because Rhode Island will see different patterns in different times than will Wyoming. They left it up to the states. So the liability shield should be up to the states as well.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Trump has been HIGHLY opposed to the idea that states should be the ones making policy decisions on COVID.

    He has used executive orders to shield companies from liability in failure to create safe workspaces - allowing meatpackers to ignore OSHA, CDC and some local regulations for just one example. He has used his public voice to assault states for not opening businesses, for requiring masks, for doing testing, and other specific acts. He has refused to take action in support of state determine needs that only the federal level can be effective at accomplishing - refusing to use the defense production act to create PPE for hospitals, refusing to contribute to testing, etc. This has been a serious impediment to state policy. He has weighed in on issues such as school openings.

    Trump has weighed in on support for stressed businesses - determining what corporations get aid. Money for stressed businesses has gone to his own family businesses. He's worked to PREVENT accounting for the stupendous bailout bill Contress passed, so it's hard to know where that money has gone. This is a serious issue in the states, and state decision making is not considered.

    Issues related to those driven from employment, those working in COVID risky environments, those who can't make rent payments, etc. are not being protected by the federal government and Trump is a part of that. His man Mnuchin lobbies against rent support, saying he's not going to pay people to not work - a phenomenal insult in a time of 30% economic recession. Does he even know that those who end up being evicted will have that on their PERMANENT record and will find it hard to ever rent again?

    This idea that states are making the decisions has only a limited grain of truth.

    Our defense against COVID is being led at the national level - with states working the edges.
     
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  7. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Let me try again to make my point clearer. Gov. Brown in Oregon has written a three phase guidance for counties to apply to begin reopening their economies. Not Donald Trump. Gov. Brown. Gov. Brown wrote an executive order describing the states' mask rules in detail. Donald Trump had nothing to do with it. Gov. Brown is largely using the state occupational safety and health department for enforcement of these rules within businesses. I see no masks at Arby's I report it to OSHA who is charged with investigating and reporting. It makes sense that the State of Oregon decide any liability protections based on its guidelines and its demand for compliance with the input of the enforcement agencies the best view of what constitutes a good faith effort to comply with state and local requirements. It does not make sense for Congress to write any because they are not seeing the language in the executive orders and they are not seeing the mounting evidence of compliance problems in the counties in Oregon. Oregon may want to distinguish what is largely a good faith effort by a business from a broad pattern of utter indifference in creating a liability protection bill, and Oregon knows how large its scope of protection should be to serve its economic and public health interests, not Congress.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Apparantely you didn't even read my post!

    So, let me be blunt and if you want a fuller explanation, please read my post.

    Gov. Brown of OR is seriously constrained by Trump.

    Trump is limiting what is available in the way of response. Trump is OPPOSING Gov. Brown and other governors in their decisions. Trump is indemnifying corporations from any limits Gov. Brown might want to impose. Trump is strongly lobbying the people to oppose Gov. Brown - making compliance highly difficult to achieve. Oregon doesn't have the borrowing capacity to handle the level of support needed by the people and Trump lobbies AGAINST supplying that - read Mnuchin's comments.

    You didn't address ANY of that!
     
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  9. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    “I’m a big believer [Gates] that for young children, the benefits in almost every location — particularly if you can protect the teachers well — the benefits outweigh the costs,” he said in an interview that aired Tuesday on “Squawk Box.” [CNBC]

    However, the back-to-school picture gets more complicated as the students get older, the Microsoft co-founder said.

    “As you get up to age, like, 13 and higher, then you’ll have to look at your locale to decide what you’ll do with high schools,” he said. “And if they’re not in, then you have to put massive effort into trying to get there to be continued learning online.”

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/bill-gates-on-back-to-school-during-coronavirus-pandemic.html

    In various exigencies societies must continue to function. Countries cannot be put into medical comas of inaction and survive for very long. It's a hard land, and a hard life of risks, kid.:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  10. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Send these kids back to school before we get a handle on this and a LOT of the nation is going to be in a coma
     
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  11. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    At least Trump is handling the situation in the best possible manner. I dread to think what Hillary Clinton would have done. She probably would be asking Maxine Waters for advice and blaming the spread of the virus on Trump’s “wrapping his arms around Xi Jinping”.
     
  12. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our schools are open, our restaurants and cafés are open ...... but we are not in a coma. The only lock-down is our hospitals. In fact, the world is beginning to praise our method of no mandatory mask and keeping distance and remaining at home if we feel ill, seeking medical advice only if we are at high-risk such as the elderly with pre-existing illnesses. Time will tell but nations once closed to us due to the virus are now welcoming us back. That decision must have been well-thought-out.
     
  13. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    And tens of thousands are getting sick and thousands dying every day
     
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  14. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    By doing nothing...in fact being counterproductive
     
  15. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another statistic brought to us from the planet uranus.
     
  16. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]


    No problems at this school!
     
  17. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    There is evidence that kids between 10 and 18 are at least as contagious as adults. So I guess if your happy with what is going on now you might still be happy. Of course the kids with unknown lingering problems may disagree with you.
     
  18. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    He's in Sweden. They are naturally distanced. :)
     
  19. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Open the schools and give the parents the option of using virtual classes. Make it a choice. It is the American way.
     
  20. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is there to "disagree with me" about? Can it really be that difficult to understand my comment? Here is again ..... ONE MORE TIME:

    "Many" is a suggestable word. Show me the reputable statistic, please and then we'll decide if we think it is "many" or not."

    Really very simple English.
     
  21. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    I'm not disagreeing with anything. Just stating the obvious that schools are a place for spread, just like any confined space with a lot of people.
    But if your looking for numbers Israel offers up a good example.

    When Covid Subsided, Israel Reopened Its Schools. It Didn’t Go Well.

    Confident it had beaten the coronavirus and desperate to reboot a devastated economy, the Israeli government invited the entire student body back in late May.

    Within days, infections were reported at a Jerusalem high school, which quickly mushroomed into the largest outbreak in a single school in Israel, possibly the world.

    The virus rippled out to the students’ homes and then to other schools and neighborhoods, ultimately infecting hundreds of students, teachers and relatives.


    Other outbreaks forced hundreds of schools to close. Across the country, tens of thousands of students and teachers were quarantined.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html

    upload_2020-8-6_11-37-8.png
    Not all countries are Sweden. Some have lot's of people in high density areas.

     
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  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That may sound good, but it has a few problems.

    Perhaps first is the FACT that COVID can not be stopped like that. Opposing COVID using public health methods (the only methods we have today) requires cooperation of the population - as has been clearly spelled out by medical science and as is clearly evident in practice.

    Thus the ramifications are not limited to those who make grossly irresponsible choices.

    Let's also remember that public schools can not take actions that are detrimental to the health and wellbeing of students and faculty.

    Finally, schools simply do not have the budget or staff to offer multiple solutions at the same time. Let's remember that school spending in the USA has not recovered since the 2008 recession, where states significantly cut education spending on the grounds that they really had no choice in salvaging their state budges - where education is one of the two largest nonmandatory state expenditures. In fact, education spending had not recovered since the recession PREVIOUS to the 2008 recession.

    So, schools are struggling to teach in ONE method - with mutliple methods far outside budget. And, there is no budget for adequate changes to buildings and practices to support in-person education during COVID.
     
  23. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Hang on. All of that will disappear on Nov 4.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  24. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am very sorry but there is nothing in your response that is relevant to my post.
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You conspiracy theorists would be hilarious if it weren't costing us lives and wealth.
     
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