Kushner's "deal of the century" falls flat on it's face

Discussion in 'United States' started by EarthSky, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Although there's no proof whatsoever for your premise, let's suppose there were Arab families who had been living in the same communities for centuries. So what?

    Large communities of Jews have lived on the territory that became Iraq for 2500 years uninterruptedly. Are those Jews a different Jewish Iraqi nation, deserving a state in Iraq?

    Large communities of Jews have lived on the territory that became Yemen for 2000 years uninterruptedly. There was a Jewish Kingdom in Yemen in the 4th century CE. Are Yemenite Jews a different Jewish Yemeni nation, deserving a state in Yemen?

    I could go on and on and on - there were large Jewish communities that lived for centuries uninterruptedly in other places, before those territories became the countries we know today. So many Jewish nations....where are we gonna put them all?

    The "not going along" started long before WWII, with the rise of pan-Arab nationalism emboldened by the fall of the Ottoman empire.
    https://israeled.org/nebi-musa-festival-riots/
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-hebron-massacre-of-1929

    I'd expect such a reply from a biased anti-Zionist, not from you.

    The Ottoman censuses were not reliable. The first reliable census in Palestine was made by the British at the beginning of the 30s.

    The table in the link gives us numbers of non-Jews, but it doesn't tell us anything about them. We don't know when they arrived in Palestine, how long have their descendants lived there, or even if the numbers include semi-nomadic Bedouins. Speaking of Bedouins, a number of families in West Bank, claiming Palestinian ancestry, are in fact descendants of nomadic Bedouins, including such ferocious nationalists as the Tamimi family (from Saudi Arabia), and the former prime minister Saeb Erekat. But they are native Palestinians...:icon_jawdrop:

    i know Israeli Arabs whose grandfathers came to Palestine from Morocco, Egypt, Saudi Arabia. There are testimonies to immigration of Arabs to Palestine after WWI. The British ignored illegal Arab immigration.

    Numbers without context don't tell us anything.
     
  2. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm talking about Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, not Arab Israelis.
     
  3. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    And has Israel's hard handed methods gotten them anywhere? No!
     
  4. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    In order to bring about peace, one has to understand the mentality they are dealing with. In the case of Israel and Palestine we have to go back to the Ottoman Empire and their belief that anyone who is not a Muslim is a Dhimmi. Dhimmitude was a lesser category and somewhat akin to slavery, so it's only natural that Muslims would feel that since they are not the ruling class and under their own Islamic laws and institutions, that they are now the Dhimmis.

    Being in a lesser category is an insult to them since Islam must supersede all other faiths, so they have to undo it regardless of the cost in human life. What the Palestinians suffer is therefore considered their fate in life.

    The only thing that can undo this mentality is prosperity. People are not so willing to see their children die when they have a future. Countries like Saudi Arabia know this and are literally paying the Palestinian leaders to keep their people in poverty. Don't think for one minute that the same Saudi leaders who are so buddy -buddy with Trump and with Israel, and not doing everything to keep the friction on going until their goal of taking Palestine back can be achieved.

    Washington can never bring about a treaty between the Palestinians and Israel, since its views are skewed by the Israeli influences around them. The only country that is neutral is Russia - and when I say neutral, I mean a nation whose interests doesn't lean on one side or the other, and will take them both into account.

    As for Israel, they better stop their punishing and hard handed methods. It has never worked in history, and will not work now either. (Nazi Germany comes to mind). Washington might not always be around to support them. All we need is one major natural disaster here and all our foreign involvements will end - and that includes Israel. Frankly I think the only nation that can bring about peace between Israel and Palestine is Russia since it is trusted by both sides.

    Lavrov could then work his diplomatic magic, I mean he did manage to reunite almost a hundred factions with Assad. Had the US not interfered, Syria would have had peace years ago.

    This of course is my opinion and how I see things, so take it as you may.
     
  5. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    This is hugely controversial. Stalin was a key player in the creation of modern Israel,
    but he quickly regretted his decision. And Russia can be blamed squarely for the
    Six Day war as the Soviets told the Syrians and Egyptians that Israel was massing
    forces against Syria. Certainly the Soviets armed the Arabs in the 1967 and1973.
    But yeah, the past is not a predictor here. Given the behavior of America in recent
    years there is little credibility here.
     
  6. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. There is plenty of proof the Arab Palestinian population of Palestine grew internally from WW1 to the partition after WW2.
    No, very few Jews lived in Palestine.


    We're talking about fewer people than attend an NBA basketball game. For centuries.
    It was their home, so what would you expect? As I said, the UN partitioned Israel because it was felt the two peoples wouldn't get along.
    I don't want to go over the British census here, but everyone agrees there were very few Jews in Palestine at the beginning of the British Mandate (60,000).

    I submit it doesn't matter how the population changed during the British Mandate. We are where we are today and there are millions of Arabs and millions of Israeli Jews living west of the Jordan River who know no other home and have nowhere else to go. The Palestinians aren't going to live in Jordan, nor are the Israelis headed back to Europe, America, or Middle Eastern countries.
     
  7. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Post 155 shows well enough how much land the Jews actually had. And how much they thieved with brute force and terror.

    This is according to the Jew state:

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.or...h-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present
    year - Jews - Non Jews
    1946 - 543,000 - 1,267,037
    1948 - 716,700 - 156,000

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
    A report from the military intelligence SHAI of the Haganah entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948," dated 30 June 1948, affirms that:
    At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations. To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration." A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases...



    The Jews, according to Jews extensively terrorized and drove the Arabs away. They decimated the population. Do note, they are biased to the whole situation. It's probably far worse to cover up that they extensively thieved their real estate.
     
  8. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    No mention in this Wiki post about Arab soldiers who terrorized Arabs,
    or calls from the Mufti for Arabs to leave their homes and not stay for
    another minute until the Jews left.
    There's some good sites which detail this, town by town.

    And as soon as this year we should start seeing international cases
    begin by Israel against the seven Arab states which drove out their
    Jews. Follow this news.
     
  9. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    I actually quoted it. And the Jews put it on 5%. Obviously their are biased and the percentage is much lower.
     
  10. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    So who do you believe?
    It's a bit like reading what the Soviets said and what America said.
    The USSR was a dictatorship with strong censorship. America is
    a democratic and liberal state with a reasonably free press - free
    enough to bring down govt. administrations (ie Watergate)
    So when it's a case of "he said, she said" I go with the balance of
    probabilities.
    Same now with China vs the EU or the USA.

    It's the same too with the Arab vs Israeli conflict. You can get
    yourself killed in some Arab countries for saying or reading
    things which are considered Zionist or revisionist. Not so in
    Israel. Trust liberal democracies over dictatorships. And oh,
    be careful of Wikipedia.
     
  11. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    You really didn't pay any attention. Both my sources are Israeli, champ. So you know, they are biased and the extensive ethnic cleansing is probably even far worse.
     
  12. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Really? Mine are Israeli too!!!!
    We have a problem.
    You might have to go to your local library and see if they have newspapers
    on microfiche going back to 1948. You will read of the Israeli govt imploring
    Arabs to remain; Israel publicly apologizing to Jordan for the Yassin business,
    Arabs threatening to cut the throats of the Jews etc..
    There's two million Arabs living in Israel with full rights, as far as I can tell.
    Their ancestors ignored the Mufti's "advice" to leave - and they would be glad
    they did.

    As an aside - I am old enough to recall an old English man telling me of his
    exploits in the "Holy land". He said that he would be jailed if he lost his rifle.
    The Jews were desperate to get their hands on weapons. Munitions and
    forts were handed over to the Arabs - and seven Arab nations were ready
    to attack the Jewish settlements. Only a miracle save the Jews.

    And today - another Hamas tunnel has been found - they are quite elaborate,
    with concrete lining,electrical conduit etc.. Aim - kill or capture Israeli civilians.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  13. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Of course the population that was already in Palestine grew internally. The question is, how much of the population at the time of the partition was the result of internal growth of the population already in Palestine at the end of WWI. Another question is how much of the population at the end of WWI was in Palestine since time immemorial.

    If you had as many and as frequent contacts with Israeli Arabs as I do, you'd be asking yourself the same questions. More so when testimonies of travelers to Palestine in the 19th century talk about a desolated country, mostly empty, where agricultural settlements were often destroyed by Bedouins in search of pastures or just easy gains. Tristram mentions Kurds in the Sharon region (now in central Israel) some 80 years before the end of WWI. The same area is now full of Arab towns and village. No Kurds at the end of WWI.

    Arabs in Palestine don't even have their own language. The differences are more significant than just accent or local slang - even personal pronouns are different not only from town to town, but even from street to street in the same town. We are reminded the words of C. S. Jarvis, Governor of the Sinai from 1923-1936: "This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Trans-Jordan and Syria and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining States could not be kept from going in to share that misery".

    Your proof is probably the UN report. It was based on reports from the mandatory, same Perfidious Albion that severely restricted immigration of Jews during WWII in their efforts to gain favor with Arabs and keep exerting strong influence throughout the Middle East. The immediate recognition of the modern state of Israel by the Soviet Bear was a part of the same game, but in the opposite direction - Kremlin knew that the birth of the Jewish state meant the beginning of the end for the British superiority in the region. Jews and Arabs were caught in the middle between world powers shaping geopolitics and mentalities as they struggled for dominance. I don't believe in the sincerity and good intentions of neither actor, not then, not now.

    Table again, no context. Not proof of anything.

    What is "core population"? Does the data include the part of Palestine on the eastern bank of Jordan river, now in Jordan? Does the data include the Golan Heights, part of Palestine before the British ceded the heights to France? Does the data include Jews who settled on bought land on the Golan only to be driven out by Ottomans and Arabs? Does the data include that part of northern Palestine now in Lebanon?

    Jews tried to take back Palestine from Ottomans. Arabs of Palestine never did.

    Are Iraqi Jews a different Jewish nation, deserving its own state?

    Let's skip the "their home" part. As shown above, many of them were not really home.

    The UN partitioned Palestine because the British, who demanded it, were far more useful for most UN members than a possibly-born-dead-Jewish-country.

    Think of every other community in every other country, and see if every one of them deserves a state in the country they live in and call home. Then we'll go back to Palestinians.
     
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  14. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Why are these important issues? Most Jews came to Israel after the Palestinian population grew internally.
    The question is open, but largely irrelevant to solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict today.
    So what? The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza know no other home and have nowhere else to go.
    Are you trying to backdoor an argument the Palestinian population growth after WW1 wasn't internal?
    I haven't discussed my proof, but I think it conclusively establishes the Arab population in Palestine for the most part grew internally after WW1.
    Most Jews in Israel go back no further than a post-WW1 relative. Doesn't matter because millions of Israeli Jews know no other home and have nowhere else to go.
    Your point is what? There never was a chance Jews were going to be handed all of what is today Israel and a partition was helpful to Jews.

    Even if you think you've managed what I see as a tawdry effort to delegitimize the Palestinians, the Arabs (or Palestinians--take your pick) living in the West Bank and Gaza in 2019 know no other home and have nowhere else to go.
    I'm sympathetic to Jews having a homeland but only because, frankly, I'm aware of the problems they've had in Europe and this country. Deadly problems--and not limited to the Holocaust.

    Israel has a choice--give the Palestinians a protectorate that might eventually lead to full independence if the Palestinians stop trying to unhorse the Jewish state or face having to incorporate them into Israel.
     
  15. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    .

    Let's stop right here. I should think the one with over 800 bases in the world is the one that wants to globally dominate. Oh well, it's all part of our new Orwellian world, with it's white is black, and black is white stuff...






    [​IMG]
    Whatever's 'right' is now called 'wrong'
    and soon it'll come, it won't be long
    when what goes 'up' will be the 'down'.
    Then frown they will, when day is night,

    and 'dark' will reign instead of 'light'. - Jeannette




     
  16. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    The US decision to hand over Jerusalem to the Jews is just one more reason to believe that Washington condones brutality and discrimination. The Israeli government continues to enforce severe and discriminatory restrictions on Palestinians’ human rights, restrict the movement of people and goods into and out of the Gaza Strip, and facilitates the unlawful transfer of Israeli citizens to settlements in the occupied West Bank. Israel has been oppressing Palestine since 1948 when the US gave Israel to the Jews and created the Israeli state.

    Hamas is a Palestinian Sunni-Islamist resistance movement. It has been the de facto governing authority of the Gaza Strip since its takeover of that area in 2007. Israel, the US and the EU regard it as a terrorist organization. But, Russia, China and Turkey do not. Israel continues to maintain its effective closure of Gaza, exacerbated by Egypt’s keeping its own border with Gaza largely sealed, and to impose restrictions that limit supply of electricity and water, restrict access to medical care and educational and economic opportunity, and perpetuate poverty. Approximately 70 percent of Gaza’s 1.9 million people rely on humanitarian assistance.

    When people are thrown out of the country they once made claim to, and are confined to a walled off border with little
    The Jews never owned Israel, it was not 'their state'. Following the holocaust of WW2 the US gave it to them in 1948. Christians, Jews and Muslims have always regarding Jerusalem as the epicenter of their religions. They were given a large part of Palestine, which they considered their traditional home but the Arabs who already lived there and in neighboring countries felt that was unfair and didn't accept the new country.

    In 1948, the two sides went to war. When it ended, Gaza was controlled by Egypt and another area, the West Bank, by Jordan. They contained thousands of Palestinians who fled what was now the new Jewish home, Israel.
    I never made any such claim regarding the 800 US military bases around the world. Of course, the US dominates. So your comment about 'domination' is frivolous banter, nothing more.
     
  17. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ah the irony? Once we were the Christian democratic state with a large middle class and a free press, while the Soviet Union was the globalist, liberal, atheist state with the controlled press. Today we are the globalist, liberal, atheist state with no middle class and a controlled press, while the Russian Federation is now a Christian democratic state with a free press and a growing middle class.








    What we were once,
    we've ceased to be.
    For times have changed now,
    can't you see?
    '
    Our flag that once,
    flew high and true,
    it now lies low,
    forlorn and blue.


    And mourns for days
    when it had pride

    of noble words and not of lies. - Jeannette

    [​IMG]





     
  18. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Yep, America always thinks desperste people will eventually surrender. Didn't work in Vietnam or Iraq or anywhere else in the Middle East but then who expects America to learn?
     
  19. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member

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    There were many pogrom in palestine and other arab dominated nations way before zionism.
     
  20. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. There's a globalist pushback in America. There's not much liberal (think Trump)
    There's still strong Christianity and certainly little "controlled press" (think of the universal
    loathing of Trump in the press)

    Russia. Middle class is a bit of a stretch - average wage is less than what Australians get on
    welfare. Orthodox Church has strong influence and inspiration to the Putin govt..
     
  21. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    America initially signed up to the partition plan, but walked away from
    it as it seemed "unworkable."
    America did not stand with Israel in its war of independence, nor did
    it support Israel in the early stages of the Six Day War.

    America and North Vietnam signed a peace treaty which saw both
    parties withdraw from Sth Vietnam. The north, with immense backing
    from the Soviets and Communist China, broke that treaty and invaded
    Sth Viet, Cambodia and Laos. Instead of Sth Viet becoming another
    Sth Korea it became another Nth Korea.

    Iraq today is a democratic nation. It no longer invades its neighbors
    nor does it possess "weapons of mass destruction."

    When will Western liberals ever learn these basic truths?
     
  22. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Jerusalem is Israel's capital. It was their capital ca 1,000 BC when King David
    took the city. His son Solomon built the Jewish temple there.
    The restrictions upon Arabs largely follow the bombings of buses and cafes'
    kidnappings; attacks upon kibbutz'; endless knife attacks and so on, so on.
    Two million Arabs happily participate in Israeli civil life, and nearly half a
    million Palestinians come to Israel every year - after being searched for course.
     
  23. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Sounds funny. What is the truth is that SEVEN ARAB NATIONS INVADED
    LAND LEGALLY PURCHASED BY JEWS OR GIVEN IN A U.N. MANDATE.

    The purpose was to kill or drive out all Jews. Without the support of the
    Soviet Union this would have happened.
     
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  24. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    The city of Jerusalem is sacred to a number of religious traditions, including the Abrahamic religions Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which consider it a holy city. Some of the most sacred places for each of these religions are found in Jerusalem and the one shared between all three is the Temple Mount.
     
  25. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    That's half the truth. The other half is that Peres made a good deal to Hamas to stop the
    killing - Israel would withdraw settlements from Gaza, there would be a north-south rail
    link; airport and seaport; industrial parks and widespread co-operation on infrastructure
    and the like. Hamas terminated these talks when.... wait for it.... some Palestinians were
    killed in a car accident with an IDF vehicle in the West Bank.
    In other words - Hamas doesn't want to deal with the Israelis, it wants war - a war it simply
    cannot win, but can gain sympathy from the international community (a risk to us all.)
     

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