Labour MP demands Livingstone resigns

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Sab, Apr 28, 2016.

  1. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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  2. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    UPDATE

    Livingstone has been suspended from the Labour party.

    Corbyns allies are being taken down.
     
  3. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Bye the way it is John Mann not Chris. He no doubt also wants the Father of the House Gerald Kaufmann removed for this

    http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/john-mann-mp-kaufman-is-a-disgrace-to-parliament-and-the-labour-party/

    Now of course apart from in his own style saying what others would not, whether what Kaufman said was antisemetic or not would depend on whether it was the truth. Channel 4 certainly did some documentaries which would suggest it is true - I don't think this is one of the ones I saw some years ago. In fact I am sure it is not and I do not believe I have seen this one but it is one. - will we be seeing Channel 4 called antisemetic now.

    [video=youtube;0E70BwA7xgU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E70BwA7xgU[/video]

    Not sure exactly the date but the Conservative Party went through a time when they almost didn't survive due to, like Labour, falling number of members - this was of course before the massive influx of billionaires pulling their strings and at that time we see them all becoming 'Friends of Israel' in response to donations. This happened to Labour as well but not to the same extent. What we seem to be seeing at the moment is the attempt by them to make criticism of Israel, racist. Kind of reminds me of what the States has been like since 65.

    It is going to be interesting because my own country which does not rely on donations from friends of Israel has a very different view on antisemitism and treats it just the same as any other racism - no extras. Criticising Israel is perfectly acceptable here. Indeed some of our councils have been banning goods from settlements since Cast Lead.

    For those who do not know Kaufmann he is a Jew and was brought up a zionist and at one time was shadow foreign secretary. I watched him go from believing strongly that there just were a few hiccups preventing Israel honouring Oslo to coming to the conclusion that he could no longer support Israel - this was after a visit some time in the first decade of the 2000 and came because he could not take the mentality he found among the many Israelis he tried to speak to. He went hoping to find and bring together Israelis with goodwill who had fellow feeling for the Palestinians who would work together to get the Palestinian State going. His disgust at not being able to find this - obviously we all know there are a few but not being able to find this as a sub strata within society generally finally made him close the door on Israel.

    Obviously it was stupid to say 'Jewish Money' being one of the accepted memes but if he is right that cannot be antisemitism. That would need to be looked into first.

    I have a suspicion that this witch hunt may have something to do with a fear that Corbyn could become PM. How could he speak up against a country if it were antisemetic to so do.
     
  4. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That would go with what I say below you post

     
  5. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It certainly does seem to be an attempted attack and it looks like it is an attack from the Labour Right on Corbyn. No doubt we will be hearing a lot more about this. Are people aware of the furore there has been about the new NUS President-elect Malia Bouattia? This article is mainly about her. I don't see a point in starting a new thread for everyone. Basically what seems to be going on is an attempt to smear those who are critical of Israel as antisemites on a scale I have never seen in this country. Some people may be aware that two or three years ago when Universities gave up the EWDA a funded college lecturer brought his union to court claiming that what they said about Israel hurt his feelings. As a Jew he said Israel was part of him so it was not right that they should be able to say things about Israel which hurt him. It was antisemitic. The Court ruled against him and in favour of freedom of speech. What is going on now appears to be of similar intent.

    Ok back to Malia Bouattia, the attack on the left and on Corbyn. This article is written by Jamie Stern-Weiner who is a researcher at Cambridge and a dual Israeli/British citizen.

    cont'd Cynical charges of antisemitism on those who fight for justice


    This is obviously going to go on for a while. Going to be interesting to see how it goes.
     
  6. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    I think it may have more to do with the fear that he couldn't.

    A lot of people will be losing their jobs next election if Mr Corbyn is still the boss. That is what they fear.
     
  7. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well you are certainly correct that the right of Labour want rid of Corbyn though with the Tories in disarray it might be better for the Right of Labour to form a new party with the Left of the Tories, they would be much more in tune politically, but really that is another subject and off topic up so for another time!

    No, while the Labour right certainly cannot stand Corbyn and would use anything to get at him, this I think is very specific and not just limited to the right of Labour wanting rid of Corbyn because he is to left. Cameron for instance is joining in. I think this is much more to do with Israel's desire to stop criticism particularly with BDS and the increasing unpopularity of Israel and it it is known that Corbyn has a critical attitude towards Israel. When he was going for election as Labour Leader the formal Jewish agencies in the UK were calling him antisemetic, fiercely disputed by other Jews particularly as reported on jfjfp. I would say it is primarily an Israeli issue. We have already had Cameron banning English councils from banning settlement produce and this is just an attempt to put the lid on free speech concerning Israel. It has been going on for years. First there was the EWDA (European Working Definition on Antisemitism) which was created behind closed doors in the US - nothing to do with Europe and which was never worked on. It had the lovely little clause saying that if it was possible that what was happening could be antisemitism then it was to be treated as anti-Semitism - that meant that if someone who was antisemetic might say that thing then every time it was said it was to be treated as if it was anti-Semitism. As just about any criticism of Israel could come into this category this limited debate. Now all of Europe has put the EWDA in the bin. Clearly for those who wish to stifle debate on Israel something else is needed and I think that is what this is about.

    This article talks about the need Israel has to be challenged and some examples of how this is stopped among Jews themselves.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/beina...upport-oppression-or-youre-out-of-the-family/

    I don't think it is that one but I was reading one today on how US Academics tend to lose their position if they do not have the demanded attitude towards Israel. That I think is what this is about and where we could be headed, ironically just as the US appears to be moving out of this and back into free speech and the sad thing is that some people I believe are buying into it too quick because if there is one thing most people do not want to be called is Antisemetic - unlike other 'racisms' since WW2 it still carries a sort of 'you want to commit genocide'.

    This article brings up some of the issues I have mentioned over the past few days.

    http://jfjfp.com/?p=82543

    Basically I think the current witch hunt is an attempt to over rule the court ruling of a couple of years or so ago which said that just because something someone said about Israel hurt the feeling of a pro Israeli Jew in Britain did not make it antisemetic.
     
  8. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  9. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just taking this on face value I do not have a problem in seeing this as antisemitism

    http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-corbyn-antisemitism-anti-jewish-british-left

    The article speaks about ingrained antisemites coming out of the woodwork. However this was exactly what Blumenthal and other Jews critical of Israel have been speaking about over the last couple of years - that the equating of antisemitism with serious criticism of Israel is going to do this. The answer is not to try harder to stop criticism of Israel but to have a proper understanding of what antisemitism is itself rather than using it to stop discussion.

    On another item Livingston says they are going to have a hard time getting rid of him because of what he said as he has been saying this for thirty years.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-coup-attempt-over-anti-semitism-row-as-mini/
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I want to make some updates

    First a lot of what I hear and no doubt you also about what Livingstone said in the press including for instance the BBC and the Guardian is giving a, I have to imagine deliberate, wrong account. I had for a long time the Guardian down as a reliable paper who would not print what was not the truth, who would check things up before printing unfortunately this is now a thing of the past. The main item but not the only one concerns him apparently saying that Hitler supported Zionism. He did indeed say that but then he clarified what he meant and that clarification presents a very different picture than the ones the British Media is presenting.

    This is the bit we get and one strongly presented in the media - they say that is what he said. Bit of a being economical with the truth here because he went on to add

    http://jfjfp.com/?p=82607

    Which changes the situation completely and is conveniently not reported.

    Norman Finklestein the person who it was believed posted the original supposed plan to transplant Jews out of Israel and into the United States has replied in full and in this also given more information on where Livingstone was coming from, being a man who was around in the 80's like Ken. I have dealt with that in this post http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=453930&p=1066146629#post1066146629 or you may prefer to just look at the very informative article here
     
  11. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I really hope people are aware of exactly what is going on here. This is on the one hand of course a desire to get rid of the left by the right wing Labour party and the Tories but it is not just that. It is using as its vehicle to try and achieve that criticism of Israel. This is not about anti-Semitism. It is calling criticism of Israel anti-Semitism.


    Hark at the chief Rabbi. He is quite explicit about what it is about
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/04/chief-rabbi-labour-has-severe-problem-with-antisemitism

    This is the beginning of totalitarian rule in the UK.

    jfjfp on Shah's and Finkelstein's use of the cartoon putting Israel in the US

    http://jfjfp.com/

    couldn't agree with that more.
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Continuing along with the theme that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, 3 English Councils have been taken to court by 'Jewish Human Rights Watch' for boycotting settlement produce alleging this political activity is antisemitic

    http://www.jewishpress.com/news/bre...3-councils-in-high-court-over-bds/2016/05/04/

    The councils themselves are arguing their right to follow International guidelines

    http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/...eful-bid-to-halt-Israel-boycotts#.Vyr-c4-cEqR

    The motivation for declaring criticism of Israel anti-Semitism is almost certainly motivated by the Israeli fear of the increasing success of BDS. However the attempt to argue criticism of Israel or even being antizionist is antisemetism because some Jews find their feelings are hurt has already been brought to our Courts and has been found not to be so.

    Current attempts to equate anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel or antizionism are hence against this ruling by a British court.

    But that is what is going on and as I said I believe it is caused by the fear of BDS. It would also be naïve to believe this is only targeted at the UK. Note how most of the people who have been accused of anti-Semitism have been accused because of what they wrote on social media several years ago. This has been threatened to University students in the US who support BDS. They have been told that there names have been taken with a view to stopping their ability to get employment in the future. It is a particular worry for Israel the support that BDS has among the American elite who obviously are the law makers and political policy makers of the future. What is happening in the UK at the moment is no doubt also intended as a threat at them - if it is successful.

    In the meantime Jews for Justice for Palestinians have provided their statement regarding the current attempt at witch hunt and destruction of political democracy.

    http://jfjfp.com/?p=82844

    Check out also the Lastly check out this Haaretz piece linked to from jfjfp so you can see without paying!
     
  13. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    I'm sorry but Mrs (or should that be Ms?) Bouattia is a well-known racist. She once attacked her alma mater, Birmingham University, as a "Zionist outpost in higher education" and that it has "the largest Jewish student society in the country." But for all we know it could also have the largest Muslim student society, gay student society and female student society in the country, but she'd never attack them. That'd be offensive, wouldn't it?

    When Bouattia was elected NUS President she was congratulated by Cage, which last year defended Jihadi John.

    She once ran a campaign called "Why Is My Curriculum White?" The answer to that question is, of course, similar to why she would find her curriculum to be black if she, for some strange reason, emigrated to her family's ancestral homeland of Algeria.
     
  14. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    By the way, Alexa just proves the point that the British Left has some sort of weird obsession with Jews and Israel (a country I very much support).

    They just can't seem to understand that British Jews are British and have nothing to do with Israel, just as British Mohammedans have nothing to do with Iran or Saudi Arabia.
     
  15. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suggest you read the article. It deals with the claims which have been made against her.

    No they didn't defend his actions. They said that when they knew him he seemed a nice but frightened block and I think suggested that the way he reported he was treated by intelligence may have had some relevance to the way he turned out. This however is nothing to do with this thread.
     
  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is just trolling
    Israel is a country supported by the right and the far right.

    I would never argue otherwise. However if you had actually read anything in this thread, you would understand that if anything at this point in time some British Jews are arguing the opposite. You are stereotyping British Jews. You believe they all think the same. Now if you start looking at what is being written about, you will find that there is a campaign by the elite British Jews and their helpers, for example John Mann, to try to get antizionism and criticism/activism to help the Palestinians recognised as antisemitism. This has already been found by our courts to not be so and to be an attempted affront on the right to freedom of political thought in the UK. The basis on which this was fought is that because a person is Jewish, Israel is felt as part of their identity and hence, in the situation this occurred, University, for academics or students to criticise Israel, hurts the feelings of the Jew who brought the case and by hurting his feelings is hence antisemitism. The court did not accept this.

    It is not of course the view of all Jews as again if you had read anything rather than just parroting off your previous wrong views you would have discovered.
     
  17. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  18. lunecat

    lunecat Active Member

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    Ken Livingstone, could well be correct in caliming Adolf Hitler was in line with Zionist thinking. The Haavara Agreement of 1933 between the National Socialsts & the Zionists was an example to demonstrate this.

    Now, of course as a Ken Livinstone hater myself, it gives me pleasure to see him in Political hot water, but i shake my head when I see what constitutes an antisemite comment. When ever did telling the truth constitute antisemitism?
     
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  19. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know if people are aware but Livingstone is now in a secret trial not for whether he told the truth or not, not even whether what he said was antisemetic or not but because he was “grossly detrimental” to the Labour Party. Quite a plot!

    Oh it is too good. I have to put it in

    http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2017-03-31/labours-witch-hunt-against-ken-livingstone/

    Jfjfp's headline for this is so accurate

    Better destroy Labour than offend Israel
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  20. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    Corbyn was not factually correct. he claims that the Nazis set up training camps for zionists for instance...utter lies.

    If Labour wants to save itself then it should get rid of the hard left
     
  21. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh Sab, you do not even have the right man.
     
  22. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    You are correct;. I meant Livingstone. Livingstone is an obvious antisemite.
     
  23. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Livingstone is critical of Israel. That is why you think he is an antisemite. Most of these antisemitism cases were just terror over criticism of Israel. As I said Livingston is no longer being accused, behind closed doors of antisemitism.
     
  24. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well he was expecting to be expelled. This is a surprise.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...capes-expulsion-labour-party-claims-zionists/

    Wonder what caused that? The Right in Labour gaining it's marbles or fear of what Livingstone might bring out - because he was going to fight expulsion.
     
  25. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they are just about coming to the view that someone objecting to the actions of any Government is against the actions of that government...nothing more...nothing less. Or is that too much to expect from UK politicians most of whom have their heads so far up the backside of Israel that we can only see their shoe soles?

    I have never understood, and I will never understand the way people think their governments are a shorthand substitute for them, and use criticism of Governments as criticism of them personally and the whole population. I, for one, would be mightily offended if anyone thought that any government in Westminster, since I was old enough to vote, has ever done anything in my name. But it is sure a good way to deflect from having to address/rebut criticism of Governments, by accusing those doing it of an "ism".....as we have seen so often regarding the plaintive cries of antisemitism when someone dares make fully justified criticisms of a great many of the illegal and/or disproportionate excesses of Israeli governments.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017

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