Lee Harvey Oswald --- How Far Back Were They Watching Him???

Discussion in 'JFK' started by resisting arrest, Feb 15, 2017.

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  1. resisting arrest

    resisting arrest Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Excerpt from Libra by Don DeLillo

    Your honor, I cannot state the truth of this case with simple yes and no. I have to tell a story. This is a boy the other children teased. It was torn, torn shirts and a bloody nose. Listen to me. I will write books about the life of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have information pertinent to the case. I am all over the world. I have struggled to raise my boys on mingy sums of money and today I am everywhere, newsreel and foreign press, but where are the funds for a decent burial? There are stories inside stories, judge. Lee collected stamps in a book and practiced chess alone at the kitchen table and they sent him to Russia to infiltrate. I will wear a camera and make a photographic record of Lee's life, getting houses and rooms on the record. I will tell how I worked at many jobs to raise my boys, leading up to practical nurse. I know what sickness looks like. I know low pay. I have worked for nine dollars a day, live-in, twenty-four hours' duty. I wore my nurse's uniform three days, sneaking from hotels with the secret police of different branches, with Life magazine running alongside, and a translator, and a photographer, and the Russian daughter-in-law, and the two sick babies. Marina stands and smokes a cigarette plain as day. I am in my uniform and they bring clothes for her. There are diapers hanging everywhere. TV gave the cue and Lee was shot. They kept it from us, being women, and then in the car to the next hotel something came over the radio and the agent said, "Do not repeat, do not repeat." And I said, "Is that my son?" And he didn't answer. So then I said, "My son is shot, isn't he?" And he said into the mike, "Do not repeat, do not repeat." So then I said, "Answer me, I want to know." "Do not repeat, do not repeat." So then they showed it on television in the room but Marina and I were not shown the sequence. They made us sit behind the television and the agents all crowded around in front and watched. And the back of the television was to us. And fifteen to eighteen men crowded in to watch on the other side. They gave us coffee and they watched.

    I am going through a death and it is hard.

    I intend to research this case and present my findings. But I cannot pin it down to a simple statement. I came home to find red welts on his legs at the age of two, where Mrs. Roach whipped him on Pauline Street, and then I placed him in a home and he slept with his brothers in a big long dormitory, one hundred little boys in rows and rows of cots. He attended six schools by the age often.

    They will search out the environmental factors, that we moved from home to home. Judge, I have lived in many places but never filthy dirty, never not neat, never without the personal loving touch, the decorator item. We have moved to be a family. This is the theme of my research.

    I arn smiling, judge, as the accused mother who must read the falsehoods they are writing about my boy. Lee was a happy baby. Lee had a dog. This is the boy who spent only one month in attendance at Arlington Heights High School before he entered the Marines when we were living on Collinwood Avenue and there are three pictures of this boy in the school yearbook. Now, why do you pick out this one boy who is in school so briefly, of all the boys and girls there, and make him the subject of three photographs? People say, "Mrs. Oswald, I don't get the point." You don't get the point? The point is how it goes on and on and on and on. That's the point. The point is how far back have they been using him? He used to climb the tops of roofs with binoculars, looking at the stars, and they sent him to Russia on a mission. Lee Harvey Oswald is more than meets the eye. Already there are documents stolen from me. There are newspaper clippings stolen from my home by one of the branches of secret police. I am all over the world and they are rifling my files.


    Now, about Marina as Russian or French. It is amazing how her English improved right after Lee is killed. It is amazing how she suddenly has a cigarette in her hand, which I never witnessed when Lee was alive. I will research the picture of Marina to learn if it is true. I have a sixth sense, judge. People have remarked on my ESP. If Lee Harvey Oswald shot the President, why didn't I know it at the time? It is a prevalent feeling every mother has when the phone rings and she knows it is her son. Why didn't I sense he was in a window with a gun when the shots rang out? Even being his gun doesn't mean he did the shooting. I will wear a camera. I will time his movements on the fatal day. I am ready to go round and round on this because there are stories inside stories, that the press is unaware. Marina knows English, Marina knows French. This foreign girl is trained. They brought clothes for Marina. They showed me a story in the paper where a woman has offered her a home. They want Marina to admit to his guilt and they will find her a home. Robert sides constantly with the secret police. Our dispositions do not jell. This is the heartbreak of blood relations. I am forgetting many things, your honor. Lee had a bicycle. Lee had a dog. This boy was shot handcuffed to an officer of the law. Somebody paid to have him shot on cue. TV gave directions and down he went. We have a moral issue all through this that I am fighting for. My mail is opened. There are three letters missing from my desk. Lee wrote to me from Russia, "I am lonesome to read." In this letter he is thanking me for sending books. He is saying please. He asks for news of his homeland. This is a letter that is missing. Our government has been watching him for years.

    Did Lee even know he was being used? This is a question I will research. Listen to me. I have to tell a story. I have to work into this, living in the French part of town. He knew Robert's manual by heart. He liked histories and maps. The recruiting officer said, "Mrs. Oswald, there is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we have here." He sold a bill. He was willing to sneak Lee in at age sixteen, before the legal limit. They were preparing him. They were using him already. Three photos in the yearbook and he was only there a month. People say, "Mrs. Oswald, what is the point?" The point is how far back did it go? When did they start watching him? Did he belong to them for life? The point is what about the boy in the casket? Lee in a suit and nice tie looking completely different from the scarecrow son in the newspapers and TV, a sturdy boy, broad-faced, like a Russian. Is the person they buried the same as the person they killed? Did they really kill him? Is the person who came back from Russia the same as the person who went? I have a right to ask these questions. How tall is Lee? What are his scars? I will bring these questions out in books and appearances.

    I wrote to Mr. Khrushchev July 19, 1960, when my boy was lost in Russia. I received no reply. I went to Washington January 21, 1961, to petition President Kennedy to find my boy and bring him home. So-wait now, this is good-they write I am neglectful. I left my boys to shift for themselves. I drove all the way to New York in that old junky Dodge. I pulled up stakes in our Western slang too many times. When the truth is that the mother is neglected. If you research the life of Jesus, you see that Mary mother of Jesus disappears from the record once he is crucified and risen. Where is the mother who raised the boy? When the boy is dead, do they build a box around the mother? I played piano by ear. I was a popular child. I can't give facts point-blank. It takes stories to fill out a life. Only think of Mr. Ekdahl, who cheated me out of a decent divorce and abandoned me to a life of scaring up dimes. Mr. Ekdahl is a story. Marina is a story where the details are lax. I strictly believe in my suspicions. Her statements, her way of life, she smokes, she does not nurse her baby. Marina has a manager. She has offers coming in and where is the mother? I am pictured in Life magazine in my uniform with hose rolled down. I have suffered like my son. We have the same construction.

    It was near dusk now, stormlight forming at the edges of low-sailing clouds, dark and mobbed, and there was urgency, a wildness in the sky, everything electric. The minister finished reciting a psalm and the funeral director prepared to lower the coffin. Policemen adjusted their gun belts shyly. The family stood and watched. Robert and Marina had similar looks, soft, lost, pleading. Make it different, make it not happen, give him another chance, another life. Marguerite, holding little Rachel across her folded arms, showed a desolation so total it could be taken as the only thing left, all she had and was, all she'd given returned to her in a suit in a box, all fall arid smash, a soul struck by ruin. She passed the baby to the minister and put her hands to her face, not touching but enclosing only, keeping the moment safe from every woe outside her own.

    They lowered her youngest son to the red clay of Texas, burying him for security reasons under another name, the last alias of Lee Harvey Oswald. It was William Bobo.

    Now Marina came forward and picked up a handful of dirt. She made the sign of the cross, then extended her arm over the grave, letting the dirt fall. Marguerite and Robert had never seen anything like this. The beauty of the gesture was compelling. It was strange and eloquent and somehow correct. They'd agreed on nothing since Robert was a boy but now they leaned together to the mound of earth and took some dirt and blessed themselves, then held their fists upright over the grave and let the dirt spill out, running through their hands like sand hurrying in an hourglass, lightly falling on the pinewood box.

    I stand here on this brokenhearted earth and I look at the stones of the dead, a rolling field of dead, and the chapel on the hill, and the cedar trees leaning in the wind, and I know a funeral is supposed to console the family with the quality of the ceremony and the setting. But I am not consoled.

    And this is from oldentimes, that the men will kill each other and the women will be left to stand at the grave. But I am not content to stand, your honor.

    I will time his movements on the fatal day. I will interview every witness. I am not speaking just to be speaking. I know as the accused mother I must have facts. Listen to me. Do you know I took Russian classes at the library? I went and studied once a week on my one day off, hoping in my heart that Lee would contact me someday, that I could talk to Marina in a normal way. Listen to me. Listen. I cannot live on donation dribs and drabs. Marina has a contract and a ghostwriter. She refused to wear the shorts I bought. And this boy on a Sunday in Fort Worth was not packed to go anywhere and the next day was gone with his wife and baby to a job in Dallas, overnight, without notice to his former employer or his mother. A job in photography where the details are not known. You have to wonder. Who arranged the life of Lee Harvey Oswald? It goes on and on and on. Lee had a stamp collection. Lee swam at the Y. I used to see him on Ewing Street with his hair all wet. Hurry home dear heart or you will catch your death. I am not letter-perfect but I have managed, judge. I have worked in many homes for fine families. I have seen a gentleman strike a wife in front of me. There is killing in fine homes on occasion. This boy and his Russian wife did not have a telephone or television in America. So that is another myth cut down. Listen to me. I cannot enumerate cold. I have to tell a story. He came home with a birdcage that had a stand with a planter. It had ivy in the planter, it had the cage, it had the parakeet, it had a complete set of food for the parakeet. This boy bought gifts for his mother. He was lonesome to read.

    My only education is my heart. I have to work into this in my own way, starting with the day I took him home from the Old French Hospital in New Orleans. I am reciting a life and I need time.
     
  2. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Lee Harvey Oswald was recruited while in the Marines into a program run out of Nags Head, NC placing "disgruntled" service people in the USSR as moles until such time they could be returned into the US with useful intelligence, hopefully.
    http://groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html

    It's just empirically true that at the height of the Cold War military personnel, under normal circumstances, could not simply drop into and out of the Soviet Union at will or without the blessings of our intelligence community.
    Undoubtedly the Russians kept a close watch on Oswald and were probing him for useful information themselves.

    Oswald did indeed that the "fingerprints of intelligence" all over him.
     
  3. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    He has no fingerprints of intelligence whatsoever. And in fact the very term is a hollywood expression for something which simply does not exist.

    There is no evidence whatsoever that such a program for placing disgruntled military personnel in the USSR even existed. Much less any evidence whatsoever that someone like Oswald would have been involved. The link you provided merely explains a phone call which is meaningless. as he was trying to call a lawyer. The John Hurt he called was FORMER counter intelligence which is not the same thing as a member of the intelligence community.

    Sure the Soviets kept a close eye om him but he had no useful information for them and they frankly did not want him in the USSR and were glad to get rid of him'
    Any civilian can indeed travel abroad including to the USSR with or without the blessings of the intelligence community even during the height of the cold war and when Oswald traveled to the USSR he was not in the military he was a civilian. The intel community had no control over him and he was free to leave the USSR and go to any nation which would accept him regardless of what anyone in the government felt.

    Epic failure again and no evidence to support your assertions
     
  4. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Wrong as usual and your opinion is a waste of time.
     
  5. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Not wrong I stated facts.
     
  6. Llewellyn Moss

    Llewellyn Moss Well-Known Member

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  7. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    This is why you tube is a worhless source for evidence or information.

    The producers of this vid merely repeated many many proven lies in an effort to create and support a conspiracy theory. Because there is no evidence of a conspiracy so they have to dream it up.

    The lies begin with the old and tired claim that the motorcade route was changed at the last minute to bring kennedy into a kill zone. Except it is proven fact that it was not changed at the last minute at all the motorcade in fact followed the planned route up until the shooting when they diverted to the hospital. The route was planned to take that unusual turn because that was the only way to hit the Stemmons freeway on ramp simply because that is how they built the roads.

    They make statements which are unsupported by any evidence such as some nobody claiming that 95% of the debris from Kennedy's skull was found across the street. And absurd claim with no evidence of any kind to back it up.

    There was no call to the SS asking them to stand down and the little clip of an agent shaking his hands took place at the airport not right before the turn onto elm as the video claims. It was not a stand down either it was one agent who got confused about his assigned post.

    The magic bullet theory was created by one or more various conspiracy theorists and is a lie. The government never claimed that the bullet zigzagged swerved and turned as the Cters suggest. Nor did the bullet have to do so to cause those wounds as the wounds line up.

    And on and on and on.

    Try some real evidence and not some silly fictional video
     
  8. Llewellyn Moss

    Llewellyn Moss Well-Known Member

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    Certainly there is better and more complete information about coup, but I enjoy their presentation.
     
  9. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    A brilliant deconstruction of the laughable case against Lee Oswald by the Warren Commission white wash.

    Of course there were dozens of others of facts the video could have pointed out to make the case against Warren's Commission even stronger (like the many inconsistencies and holes connecting Oswald and the so called murder weapon, the highly deficient Manlicher-Carcano WWI relic http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/faulty.htm).

    But to be fair anyone studying the issue already knows how the deck was stacked against history's greatest patsy.
    To the others who blatantly lie and deny, their opinion does not matter anyway. They are irrelevant.
     
    Llewellyn Moss likes this.
  10. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    One man murdering another i not a coup.

    And that is all that happened
     
  11. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    The video is a sham full of massive falsehoods as I have shown and that is fact.

    There was no coup and the Warren Commission stated an accurate conclusion based on evidence which you cannot refute.

    You have been asked repeatedly and never offered even one shred of evidence for this claim.
    I know you think you are informed on this but you are not. You have only cherry picked a few rumors which support a belief and ignored the facts
     
  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    doesn't Trump think Cruz's dad was in on it?
     
  13. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    I believe he is credited with having said that. At least Trump acknowledges the idea of the lone "nut" killing Kennedy by himself
    is a bit of nonsense, even if his view of Cruz's father may be a fantasy.
     
  14. usda_select

    usda_select Active Member Past Donor

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    Oswald's guilt is not in question from any serious quarter. Oswald is the tip of the iceberg. It is just a question of what/who else is in that iceberg.
     
  15. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Which there is no evidence of.

    That question has been looked at for decades and nothing found
     
  16. usda_select

    usda_select Active Member Past Donor

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    I think its pretty clear Oswald was guilty of pulling the trigger.

    It's equally clear to everyone (including the HOR committee empaneled to look at the case) that there was a conspiracy involved.
    Additionally, in the entire history of things that are now proven; there was a period when they were not proven... Eventually, it will be the same with Oswald and the conspiracy that placed one of the few people to defect to and from superpowers during the height of the Cold War and that the CIA followed to Mexico during his visit of the Cuban Embassy there...on the motorcade route.
     
  17. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's that clear at all. No one has ever placed Oswald on the sixth floor of the schoolbook depository during the time of the shooting. The Dallas police and FBI planted evidence used to support their narrative that Oswald was the disturbed lone assassin.
    http://readersupportednews.org/opin...rt-2-counterfeit-id-planted-in-oswalds-wallet
    http://assassinationofjfk.net/looking-at-the-tippit-case-from-a-different-angle/
    https://jfk007.com/wowzer-a-mauser/
    If Oswald was in any way guilty of the charges against him why was it necessary for the Dallas police working in conjunction with the FBI
    to doctor evidence and plant fake items later used to convict him in absentia (because another police stooge Jack Ruby was used to silence Oswald so no trial was ever needed).
     
  18. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    You are quite wrong and once again the evidence proves it which you have never bothered to learn. Several witnesses saw him on the sixth floor before the shooting and when they left he remained. One need not have any other witnesses to prove he was there. Killers who commit pre - meditated murder often will avoid witnesses.

    Stating that the Dallas Police and FBI planted evidence is an outright falsehood. No one can provide any evidence for such a claim and your links provide only hearsay rumor without a speck of evidence. The Mauser issue was nothing more than confusion as the Mauser and Carcano look superficial similar and can easily be confused.

    Ruby committed his own crime on his own without any assistance which was proven and he did not silence Oswald. Oswald had two days talking to the media, lawyers and his family. By definition if there were a plot to silence him it FAILED.

    In addition such a plot would have required Ruby to be silenced and he lived on for years.

    So for the millionth time name one specific lie or omission or act of cover up from the warren commission report which you have never read.
     
  19. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Been done already the HSCA based their conclusion of a probable conspiracy on one and only one piece of evidence which was absolutely debunked.

    The CIA did not follow him to Mexico and tens of thousands of people were on the motorcade route making his presence there unremarkable.

    There is no evidence and over the decades the best efforts have failed to find any
     
  20. usda_select

    usda_select Active Member Past Donor

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    We could discuss his actions after the killing of JFK.

    I ask why he left the TSBD. Why leave if you're not guilty?
    I ask why he would take a bus, a cab, then move on foot; sounds like he is trying to lose someone. Strange if you're not guilty.
    I ask why he would go home, get a jacket and a revolver; only to remove the jacket later on. Again, obviously trying to change appearances
    I ask why he shot JD TIppit (numerous witnesses saw it so don't even try)?
    I ask why he would say "This is it" when finally close to being apprehended by the police....

    If he wasn't guilty...why would he need to be silenced? That's very odd.

    Answer (or not). I've researched it for decades. I'm pretty sure I've heard it all.
     
  21. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Why stay there if you weren't connected to the coup?
    Of course Oswald was connected to the coup, he permeates the scheme to shoot the president but only as a pawn.
    There are dozens of books trying to unravel that mystery but what we do know is nothing we think we know about the Life magazine/Warren Commission profile of Oswald is true.
    Oswald was given a ride from the school book depository to his boarding house, which he came home to after the shooting and then to the theater where he was led into the set up shooting of JD Tippit. http://assassinationofjfk.net/looking-at-the-tippit-case-from-a-different-angle/
    "Someone" shot Tippit but it wasn't Oswald. A double shot Tippit and then made an incriminating show before being led out the back door of the theater and Oswald, who was taken there thinking he was going to meet a contact from his handlers, was arrested and led out the front as part of the elaborate plot to
    set up the patsy.
    You need to do some homework.....
    Do you really think you can believe the story the Warren Commission has spoon fed the public about Tippit and Oswald?

    Not at all and Oswald had much to tell inside a court room about his contacts with our deep military intelligence community and how he got into and out of Russia, after being recruited into a special program in NC (he was a fluent speaker of Russian) designed to get people on the inside of the Soviet Union.

    No offense but it sounds to me like
    you haven't nearly begun to hear what really happened.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  22. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    There simply was no coup. It was an act of murder by one man
    [/QUOTE]

    There simply was no coup it was an act of murder by one man. According to one publisher there are actually thousands of such books not dozens. You give yourself away however with your description that they are TRYING to unravel the mystery. This is because they invent the mystery out of thin air to begin with and then go looking to unravel it. There is no evidence that such a mystery even exists. We do know and can prove Oswald shot Kennedy and that evidence is overwhelming. What you cannot provide evidence of is a conspiracy involving anyone else.

    I keep asking but you never provide any.

    Especially some evidence about an omission or lie or cover up from the Warren Commission which you keep saying but never answer in the slightest. It might help if you follow your own advice and do some homework rather than simply cherry picking others ideas which you agree with. This is why we do KNOW that the WC conclusion was true. It is supported by evidence all of your claims are NOT.

    Sorry Oswald was not given a ride anywhere after the shooting although he did PAY for a ride to the boarding house. There is zero evidence that he was GIVEN a ride by someone to the theater and we do know he walked there after shooting Officer Tippet. The link you provided provides no evidence for it's claims and is STRICTLY speculative. Speculation is not evidence. We do have evidence he shot Officer Tippit to include witnesses ( which are ignored by your speculative link ). Ballistic evidence matching the bullets to the gun which Oswald owned and still had on his person when arrested and we have expended shells with his prints.

    He shot Tippit and that is proven by the evidence just as it is proven he shot Kennedy.

    The ludicrous story you present of a double shooting Tippit and then being led out of the theater while Oswald is arrested is not only absolute imaginary it is also illogical. If they were going to set up Oswald to be arrested there was no need to murder a cop and doing so would only have increased their exposure and the possibility of something going wrong. They were already looking for him before Tippit was shot which is why Tippit stopped him in the first place. So not only do these assassins Murder the president leaving TONS of clues for conspiracy nuts to follow ( but no evidence ) they also endanger their whole operation by needlessly murdering a cop which served no purpose.

    There was no such special program in NC at all and you have yet to provide evidence of it. On the other hand we have his military service record which makes no mention of such a program and we have very detailed documentation of his life and he never went to any such special program.

    He was not fluent in Russian he spoke it passably but most people in Russia including his wife immediately identified him as a foreigner because of his accent and sloppy language skills. Learning a foreign language is somewhat unique but not enough to serve as proof of anything.

    You are truly the one who does not know what happened because you learned about it from You tube rather than proper homework and research
     
  23. usda_select

    usda_select Active Member Past Donor

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    Humorous retort. None of which is worthy of comment except to point out that unless you're an idiot, you wouldn't be in the building next to where the President was killed unless there was a logistical reason for you to be there. Your theory is garbage. Seriously. Oswald didn't pull the trigger but decided, "Hmm, I think I'll be in the building next to where the President is getting killed anyway?" Again, yours is a playful and humorous take on the death of the President
     
  24. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Is this meant for me? Speaking of humor you claim to have "seen it all" when it comes to the assassination of JFK yet you truly seem to know next to nothing.
    You should educate yourself. Take some time and learn something from a well documented source, if you dare.

    I don't have any "theories". I only know what I can confirm and that's why I don't believe a single syllable of the Warren Commission narrative
    (unlike you, it seems). You truly seem to think Lee Harvey was up there on the sixth floor with his two bit Manlicher-Carcano junk rifle firing
    shots down at Kennedy and Connelly but I'll bet you can't explain why the weapon Dallas police found in the "shooter's nest" was a
    Mauser (7.56, I believe), if you are even aware it was there.

    You can't explain why his prints were never found on any weapon and why there was no paraffin gunpowder residue on Oswald at all when tested by the police.
    Have you been taking in everything the Warren Commission told you like a
    good citizen?


    Except as the fall guy the CIA chose (he played the rabid pro Communist to the hilt) and the Warren Commission dutifully reported it's doubtful Oswald had a thing to do with the actual killing of Kennedy. Wake up if you can.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  25. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    You have many beliefs and not one of them can be confirmed or supported by evidence. I have asked many many times for any evidence and you never provide any nor can you quote any statement from the Warren Commission because you never read it and have no idea what it says. So go ahead and quote something that they lied about.

    Can't do it.

    Yes he was on the sixth floor that is proven and he did fire three shots from a Manlicher Carcano.

    The Dallas police never found a Mauser they only mistook Oswald's rifle for a Carcano because the two have a superficial resemblance. This is proven and not an issue.

    His prints WERE found on the only rifle recovered which was the Manlicher Carcano. They were also found on the expended brass.

    As I explained the fact is that Paraffin tests were not reliable and lack of detectable residue is irrelevant.
    Oswald did not play act as a communist he was one from an early age.

    Once again every time you ridicule the Warren Commission you are being willfully dishonest. You have been asked to quote one lie or omission or serious error backed up with facts and you cannot do so because you know you are ignorant of this subject and have never read the WC report.

    You have yet to produce evidence and each of your claims has been massively debunked by facts
     

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