Lies and False Narratives of Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    1. Christianity is responsible for most of the atrocities of humanity.
    False.
    Human greed, the lust for power, and man made institutions are at the root of man's inhumanity to man, not Christian ideology, which teaches the exact opposite.
    2. The bible is full of errors.
    False.
    No historical accounts recorded in the biblical manuscripts have been disproved or refuted by any other evidence.
    3. The bible has changed many times.
    False.
    The early church fathers quoted every passage in the new testament, and plenty from the old. There is no substantive disagreement with our current translations. All the historical manuscripts have lots of corroboration from other documents. The biblical manuscripts have a long history of scholarship and textual criticism by a continuous line of biblical scholars, translators, and historians.
    4. Hitler was a Christian.
    False.
    Hitler despised Christianity, and esteemed Islam. He was a chameleon, manipulating people for his agenda. He did not follow or esteem the teachings of Jesus.
    5. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.
    False.
    Christianity has provided the basis for enlightenment thought, freedom of conscience, human equality, and the natural rights of Man.
    6. The bible can be translated in many ways, and can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.
    False.
    There is a scholarly, exegetical intent of the words used in the biblical manuscripts. Scholars may differ in some of the nuances in translation, but the source is clear and historically accurate. Individuals might apply personal meanings from a passage, but that does not override the original intent of the author.
    7. Christianity demands a political theocracy, mandating Christian values as law.
    False.
    That is the agenda of Marxism and Islam. Historical Christianity is not involved with the secular state, and has always been contrary to the mandates from despots. Since the reformation, separation of church and state has been a constant theme.
    8. Christianity is an ideology of oppression, mandating conformity and submission to elites.
    False.
    Christianity has never been a good fit with man's institutions. It has constantly rebelled against the status quo, and openly defied human authority and power.
    9. Christianity is anti science.
    False.
    Many early scientists were Christians, looking to see 'what God hath wrought'.
    10. Christianity is anti education.
    False.
    Almost all older universities have Christian principles in their mission statement.
    11. Christianity is bigoted and racist.
    False.
    Christians led the abolition movements. Human equality is a basic principle of Christianity. It is anti elitist, unlike the institutions of the world.

    If there are any additions, I will be glad to address those as well. And, if you want to debate any of these points more, I welcome a reasoned, evidenced discussion.

    It is impossible to enslave, mentally or socially, a bible-reading people. The principles of the bible are the groundwork of human freedom
    . ~Horace Greeley

    For more than a thousand years the BIBLE, collectively taken, has gone hand in hand with civilization, science, law --in short, with the moral and intellectual cultivation of the species, always supporting and often leading the way. ~Samuel Taylor Coleridge

    "The BIBLE has been the Magna Charta of the poor and oppressed. The human race is not in position to dispense with it" ~Thomas Huxley
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  2. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    Hitler despised Islam and Arabs.. He considered them "mud people".

    The Dark Ages with its rejection of science was directly related to the power of the church.. and years of witch burnings.
     
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  3. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is the phony narrative, to smear Christianity by association with Hitler. But he esteemed islam much more, as a warrior ideology.

    You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness? ~Adolf Hitler

    I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mohammed, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians! In your lifetime, you used to hear the music of Richard Wagner. After your death, it will be nothing but hallelujahs, the waving of palms, children of an age for the feeding bottle, and hoary old men. The man of the isles pays homage to the forces of nature. But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. ~Adolf Hitler

    Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism [Islam], that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so. ~Adolf Hitler


    Good article here, and the info is widely available to any who seek truth, not just affirmation of the narrative.
    https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/bo...nazi-germanys-war-by-david-motadel-1421441724

    Regarding science: it was Christianity that brought Europe out of the dark ages, with revived principles from the reformation. Science and the age of reason sprang from this concept of freedom of conscience.. a revolutionary concept in the state mandated, state controlled belief systems.

    Now, we see progressive ideology dragging us back to the dark ages, censoring alternate expressions and shouting down outliers to the State Narrative with antifa tactics. Science is 'owned!' by atheists, and used as a propaganda tool for Indoctrination.
     
  4. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing phony about it.. Haven't you studied European history? Have you never heard of the Cathars, Kinghts Templar, black plague, witch burnings, Crusades, Inquisition, Conquistadors.

    The killed anyone they percieved as a heretic.
     
  5. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    That was point #1 in the OP. Did you bother to read it?

    1. Christianity is responsible for most of the atrocities of humanity.
    False.
    Human greed, the lust for power, and man made institutions are at the root of man's inhumanity to man, not Christian ideology, which teaches the exact opposite.
     
  6. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    False narratives about Christianity abound, in the public discourse. I started this thread to expose and discuss them, but most do not want to address facts, or history, but just continue to pound the drum of anti-christian propaganda.

    Why is that?

    IMO, it is because of the growth of Progressivism, as a competing worldview, with its basis in Marxism and Darwinist theory. It is a competing religious belief, about the nature of the universe, and the usual human practice of religious bigotry is used, to promote THEIR beliefs, while demeaning the competition.

    Those immersed in Progressivism are typically anti-christian, with knee jerk hostility AND false narratives that demean and disparage Christianity and Christians, personally. The widespread increase of anti-christian reviling, mocking, and ridicule is evidence of this observation.
     
  7. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    The anti-christian narrative:

    1. Christians hate science.
    2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.
    3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.
    4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.
    5. American Christians want a theocracy.
    6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.
    7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.
    8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.
    9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.
    10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.
    11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.
    12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.

    These things are indoctrinated by progressive institutions constantly, until the anti-christian bias is firmly imbedded into the target indoctrinees. This is constantly illustrated in the forums, academia, entertainment, the media, and govt institutions.

    Welcome to Progresso World.
     
  8. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    'Christians hate education!'

    ..another popular caricature, from the anti-christian propagandists.

    1. American education was founded upon Christian principles, and the desire to instruct the people in biblical values and moral behavior. Congress approved a bible to be printed and distributed for training, education, and instruction.
    [​IMG]
    2. The mission statements of prestigious universities were overtly Christian and biblical, in their themes and goals.

    Harvard: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning.”

    American education, far from being 'hated!' by christians, was begun, grown, and organized by Christians.. some under a denominational banner, some unaffiliated.
     
  9. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Hm, speaking as relatively progressive and possibly anti-Christian (depending on exactly how you define that) and having gone through several secular institutions, I find myself not believing a single thing you suggest as the narrative associated with my view as you have written them. There's not a lot of them which I can ascribe to many of my secular friends and acquaintances (and I'm not fully convinced they literally believe some of them which they might say, although that's a discussion for another topic).

    While I'm sure you can dig up people who do believe these things, indeed some of them pipe up on this very forum, if you address only these issues and issues on the same track, you will have missed the bulk of the argument coming from the progressive side.
     
  10. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I was not addressing, 'the bulk of the argument coming from the progressive side,' but inherent anti-christian bias, among progressives, evidenced by the phony narratives they use, constantly, to smear Christianity.

    IMO, it is just the typically human practice of cheering their own beliefs, and booing the opposition.

    But it is a false caricature that is presented, by progressive indoctrinees, not an accurate depiction of the biblical Christian worldview.
     
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  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Suggesting that there were Christianss involved does NOT support the notion that Christianiity led civil rights, or promotes science, or is pro-education, or is the source of our government's design, or whatever.

    It just doesn't work like that.

    Picking some Christian who did something you like and then claiming that whole direction for Christianity is the worst kind of cherry picking.
     
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  12. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Speaking as a relative progressive, do you suggest that I hold any of these biases (which I've mentioned that I do not hold)?

    It may be that you're not addressing the bulk of the arguments, I just think you should be aware that it makes you come across as missing the point of secularism altogether.
     
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  13. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Arguing over religious beliefs will always lead nowhere.
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it's unlikely that someone will change the religious beliefs of someone who is devout.

    However, we HAVE made progress in such things as determining that it is better to separate religion from government, that there is a place for personal rights (as religion focuses on personal duties), that we needd to accept evidence based scientific exploration, that we must accept religious plurality, that there is a major difference between "sin" and acceptable law, etc., etc.
     
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  15. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Glad there is some progress.
     
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  16. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    You illustrate the false narrative very well.

    Abolitionism, women's suffrage, civil rights, and even prohibition were almost extreme in their religious roots and motivations.. Christian based 'religion', not the johnny-come-lately liberal/progressive hijack.

    Read speeches from real abolitionists, leaders, and politicians of the times. These were not anti-christian skeptics, or militant atheists, spewing hostility toward Jesus and the bible.

    That you believe the false narratives, and promote them, shows the level of indoctrination, into Progressivism.

    Not all involved were bible thumping 'Christians!', but they used Christian language, arguments, assumptions, and were sympathetic to Christianity. Even Lincoln, a nonbeliever, was considered by many to be a Christian because of his religious language.

    I don't remember any particular expressions from you, but my memory for individual expressions is short.

    Accusing individuals of promoting the narratives is not my goal, but exposing it, when it arises.

    What is the 'point' of secularism, anyway? ;)

    Does it have an agenda? Is it a competitive worldview? Is it taught and indoctrinated, like worldviews before it?

    Not so. Anytime a 'new!' religious view begins to overcome the 'old' religious view, there is often a lot of collateral damage during the transition. I see that during the growth and expansion of Christianity, islam, the French revolution, the Russian revolution, and even spain and germany, last century.

    So the new religion of Progressivism is actively smearing and demeaning Christianity, as a competing worldview.

    Narratives, lies, & propaganda are all favorite tools of the progressives, to attain the goal of cultural dominance.

    Yes, the transition from Christianity, as the former majority opinion in western civilization, is nearing completion. Progressives dominate almost all human institutions:
    Academics
    Entertainment
    The press
    The judicial system
    Government officials and agencies
    Large religious denominations
    Political parties

    Etc.
     
  17. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is rather absurd to claim christianity as the source of most atrocities

    Otoh, it has been associated with many such activities. It is evasive to assign all goodness of christians to the religion, and all badness to human nature. Surely the point of christianity is to lead its adherents to a improved character. If christianities adherents wind up being as bad as non christians (because if human nature) then i cannot see the point of its apparently empty pontifications.... human niature appears much stronger than religious convictions, however idealistic
    At the very least there are innumerable copying errors in the NT. There are also various inconsitencies between different gospels. And other stories that are so far fetched as to be ludicrous if taken at face value.... like jonah and the Big fish. (Which was not a whale)
    I am afraid the christians relied upon a greek translation from hebrew no translation is perfect. various christians disagree in what is and us not part of the bible. Jews do not consider tge seotuagant to be authoritative. Jews do not consider many quotes in the NT to be accurate

    Disputes over canonicityEdit
    As the work of translation progressed, the canon of the Greek Bible expanded. The Hebrew bible, also called Tanakh, has three divisions: the Torah (Law), the Neviʾim (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings). The Septuagint has four: law, history, poetry, and prophets, with the books of the Apocrypha inserted where appropriate. [30]

    The Torah (Pentateuch in Greek) always maintained its preeminence as the basis of the canon; it is not known when the Ketuvim("writings"), the final part of the Tanakh, were established, although some sort of selection process must have been utilised, because the Septuagint did not include other well-known Jewish documents such as Enoch or Jubilees, or other writings that do not form part of the Jewish canon and which are now classified as pseudepigrapha.

    However, the Psalms of Solomon, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, the Epistle of Jeremiah, the Book of Odes, the Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151 are included in some copies of the Septuagint,[31] some of which are accepted as canonical by Eastern Orthodox and some other churches. (The differences can be seen here.)

    The Septuagint includes books called anagignoskomena in Greek, known in English as deuterocanon ("second canon") because they are not included in the Jewish canon. Among these are the first two books of Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch (including the Letter of Jeremiah), additions to Esther and additions to Daniel, all these books are considered by the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church as canonical books, for Protestantism are Apocrypha. The Septuagint version of some Biblical books, like Daniel and Esther, are longer than those in the Masoretic Text.[32] The Septuagint text of the Book of Jeremiah is shorter than the Masoretic text.[33]

    Since Late Antiquity, once attributed to a Council of Jamnia, mainstream rabbinic Judaism rejected the Septuagint as valid Jewish scriptural texts. Several reasons have been given for this. First, some mistranslations were ascertained.[34] Second, the Hebrew source texts, in some cases (particularly the Book of Daniel), used for the Septuagint differed from the Masoretic tradition of Hebrew texts, which was affirmed as canonical by the Jewish rabbis. Third, the rabbis wanted to distinguish their tradition from the newly emerging tradition of Christianity.[25][35] Finally, the rabbis claimed for the Hebrew language a divine authority, in contrast to Aramaic or Greek—even though these languages were the lingua franca of Jews during this period.[36] As a result of this teaching, translations of the Torah into Koine Greek by early Jewish Rabbis have survived as rare fragments only.

    In time the Septuagint became synonymous with the "Greek Old Testament", i.e. a Christian canon of writings which incorporated all the books of the Hebrew canon, along with additional texts. The Roman Catholicand Eastern OrthodoxChurches include most of the books that are in the Septuagint in their canons. Protestant churches, however, usually do not. After the Protestant Reformation, many Protestant Bibles began to follow the Jewish canon and exclude the additional texts, which came to be called "Apocrypha" (originally meaning "hidden" but became synonymous with "of questionable authenticity"), with some arguing against them being classed as Scripture.[37][38][39][full citation needed]The Apocrypha are included under a separate heading in the King James Version of the Bible, the basis for the Revised Standard Version.[40]
     
  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That has no real meaning at all, as the same can be said of those on both sides.

    Surely you aren't suggesting that slave owners weren't Christians, too. The majority of those throughout the Southern states of America (and WAY beyond) opposed civil rights - andd they were Christians, too.

    This whole diatriibe of yours is oriented to coopting important ideas for your personal religion - even regardless of whether they have ANYTHING to do with religion.
    America stands for being a religiously plural society with a separation between government/law and religion.

    Your question is simply not the issue.
    Once again, you're trying to wrap history into a narrative that is purely religious.

    You even have to declare the worst receent dictatorships as being religions - that the secular world, IS a religion in your desperation to stake your claim.
    Well, there was monumental religious overreach in many of these areas.

    Correcting for that doesn't mean Christianity or any other religion is headed for the round file.

    The Pope was pretty upset about England deciding that religion and government needed to be separate - and, fnally that people must make a personal religious decision rather than being of the state religion because of their birth.

    Are you suggesting that was the beginning of the end of Christianity?

    I don't believe that at all. We NEED our society to be religiously plural. We were founded with that as a prominent issue.

    Even Christianity needs religious pluralism. And, that means there will be people who disagree with you on matters of religion - and entertainment, government, etc., too.
     
  20. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't know how people can discuss Christianity unless they know what it entails, and if someone is or is not a Christian. Here's a nice breakdown by Saint Nektarios. (Translated from the Greek).


    What Christianity is:

    Christianity is a religion of revelation. The Divine reveals its glory only to those who have been perfected through virtue. Christianity teaches perfection through virtue and demands that its followers become holy and perfect. He who is truly perfect in virtue becomes through Divine help outside the flesh and the world, and truly enters another, spiritual world; not, however through their imagination, but through the effulgence of Divine Grace. Without Grace, without revelation, no man, even the most virtuous, can transcend the flesh and the world.

    There are truths in Christianity that are above our intellectual comprehension, incapable of being grasped by the finite mind of man. Our intellect takes cognizance of them, becomes convinced of their reality, and testifies about their supernatural existence.

    What Christianity is not:

    It is not a certain philosophic system, about which learned men, trained in metaphysical studies, argue and then either espouse or reject, according to the opinion each one has formed. It is faith, established in the souls of men, which ought to be spread to the many and be maintained in their consciousnesses.

    There are truths in Christianity that are above our intellectual comprehension, incapable of being grasped by the finite mind of man. Our intellect takes cognizance of them, becomes convinced of their reality, and testifies about their supernatural existence.

    Christianity is a religion of revelation. The Divine reveals its glory only to those who have been perfected through virtue. Christianity teaches perfection through virtue and demands that its followers become holy and perfect. It disapproves of and opposes those who are under the influence of the imagination.

    He who is truly perfect in virtue becomes through Divine help outside the flesh and the world, and truly enters another, spiritual world; not, however, through the imagination, but through the effulgence of *Divine grace. Without grace, without revelation, no man, even the most virtuous, can transcend the flesh and the world.


    *Divine Grace - *God's gift to man so he can achieve perfection and unite with Him after death.

    What God loves:

    God loves those who have a pure heart, listens to their prayers, grants them their requests that lead to salvation, reveals Himself to them and teaches the mysteries of the Divine nature.

    The pure heart and the pure intellect is illuminated by the Divine Light, only because they are susceptible to receiving light; whereas impure hearts and intellects, not being susceptible to receiving illumination, have an aversion to the light of knowledge, the light of truth; they like darkness.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Good comments, Jeannette.

    My own view is that religion can help us find a better path. What you presented can be of value to those of pretty much every faith - even those who accept that there is no actual supernatural being.

    The strife comes because of humans.

    Here is a trio seriously working on finding common ground among the major Biblical faiths, know to me through friendship:

    http://interfaithamigos.com/Home.html
     
  22. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    I believe there is the potential in everyone to achieve Holiness, but it's easier for those that live in surroundings permeated by faith and love, since our heart or lack of it does have an affect on others.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I would agree that "holiness" is a valid objective that should be worked toward always. But, I don't accept that it is achievable by humans. It may be a matter of where you set the bar. There is (??) an Asian saying that involves the fact that the world as a whole is not perfect - proof that I'm not perfect.

    I do believe we have responsibilty that extends beyond our families, our churches/organizations, our states, our country - to places which aren't conducive to the search for holiness.

    Jesus showed a way which strongly featured compassion.
     
  24. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    +1
    That is the point, here.

    Human nature has a propensity toward evil. Christianity is, and has been, a 'fix' for this problem. It is not the cause, as the false narrative goes.
     
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  25. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    This is a straw man of my points. Nowhere am i arguing that all goodness in the world comes from Christianity. I am arguing against the phony narrative that Christianity is the source of evil in humanity.. a common caricature from anti-christian bigots.

    And your revisionist views of history, especially wrt abolitionism, women's suffrage, and civil rights, only illustrates the widespread acceptance and success of progressive propaganda.
     

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