Long term effects of COVID 19 infection

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by Bowerbird, Feb 19, 2022.

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  1. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    New studies are currently being published that show COVID 19 had some very concerning long term effects and not just in the older more obese population. For those who do not want to wade through the Journal article abstracts listed below here is a news report

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-risks-heart-problems-remain-elevated-year-rcna15608

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3

    Remember that COVID is an endothelial disease - it attacks the linings of your blood vessels

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

    Lung function found to be impaired in even asymptomatic patients

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34322859/
    Long COVID

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95565-8
     
  2. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    A study from July of 2020 is new? Guess you are batting .670 on the new claim.

    More evidence Covid affects the body much the same as influenza. Why the shock? It’s what viruses do. It sucks, but it’s no surprise. We would be surprised if we didn’t see this with Covid.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Nothing like looking at the wrong link - February 2022 is the main link

    It does NOT “affect the body like influenza” the pathway for attack is different. Covid affects the ACE receptors which is why one of the main effects is on the endothelium
     
  4. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    When you say “new studies” and post multiple links I assume you meant what you said—they are new studies. Not important, it’s just the 2020 piece has been debated a lot on PF in the past.

    SARS-CoV-2 does infect cells using ACE2 receptors. But the sequelae from Covid that result from infection are nearly identical to sequelae from influenza. Also, even though influenza does not directly facilitate infection via ACE2 receptors, it does profoundly affect endothelial cells and this subsequently disrupts cytokine and chemokine regulation leading to severe disease very similar to Covid. Some examples of sequelae shared by both influenza and Covid. Not a comprehensive list:

    1) Both Covid and influenza induce thrombosis (venous and arterial).

    2) Both induce plaque rupture and subsequent cardiovascular events (MI and stroke).

    3) Both can cause alopecia

    4) Both are associated with “brain fog”.

    5) Compromised gas exchange in alveoli is observed after recovery from both.

    6) Both induce asymptomatic and fulminate myocarditis.

    7) Both are associated with artery dissection in individuals with no previous risk factors.

    Of course the physiological pathways vary as the two viruses are different. But the sequelae of the two are eerily similar. Unfortunately, people are led to believe SARS-CoV-2 is frightening or novel based on these sequelae. People should be told such sequelae are NORMAL after viral infections. To be clear, these sequelae are serious business and should be avoided using all available mitigations. But spooking people by pretending this is unique to SARS-CoV-2 is unnecessary misinformation. I see no reason to pretend this is new or novel information in the context of Covid. For people educated in virology this was expected.

    Now, are you quite certain there are not similar effects on the body from influenza and Covid?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  5. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And this is why you keep going back onto my ignore list - nitpicking supercilious responses

    will answer in full later
     
  6. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I believe it’s important for the general public to get a full understanding of the subject matter. I’m weary of seeing Covid treated as some super virus capable of producing sequelae out of the ordinary for respiratory viruses. It’s been going on since myocarditis was discovered in convalescents over a year and a half ago. I believe it’s time to stop trying to scare the bejeebus out of people and start sharing more information that will make a difference in their new lives with endemic Covid.

    For example, why not inform people normal body weight cuts risk of many of the sequelae you’ve posted about by 25-40% compared to moderate and severely obese individuals? Or are we going to treat sequelae like infection and severe Covid risk and not recommended non pharmaceutical mitigations?

    If being one of the rare PF member interested in complete, accurate information and ALL proven Covid mitigations makes me supercilious so be it. I’ll continue to educate on facts of Covid and inform people of ways to protect themselves from Covid regardless of anyone’s dependence on PF ignore function.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
  7. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Because weight loss is never that simple and you are in effect “blaming” people. If weight loss were as simple as you are claiming then why doesnt weight watchers and other groups have a higher long term success rate? It doesn’t help that we went down the wrong path for years with fat versus sugar or that the sugar industry is hugely powerful and has been blocking research or rather “selectively funding”.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat
    https://magazine.ucsf.edu/sugars-sick-secrets

    Neither is sugar the only thing to blame for the epidemic of diabetes

    Hypertension without obesity is a risk factor and yet how much have you heard about the benefits of a low salt diet?
    https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/2021/10/05/postgradmedj-2021-140674
    https://www.healthline.com/health/high-blood-pressure-hypertension/foods-to-avoid#dash-diet

    Now please tell me how influenza causes endothelial dysfunction
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10557-021-07207-w
     
  8. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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  9. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you can use the PF quote function to show where I’ve said weight loss is “simple”. Please refrain from strawman arguments. It is a FACT BMI predicts incidence of sequelae. Stating a FACT that can help maximize public health is not blaming. Is pointing out the FACT the unvaccinated are more likely to have sequelae by about 50% “blaming”? Is pointing out the FACT quality masks can mitigate Covid “blaming”? If not, how is pointing out the FACT obesity increases odds of infection, severe disease, and sequelae “blaming”?

    Agree the public health recommendations that led to overconsumption of simple carbohydrates was a terrible blunder. But not drinking a soda or not eating a Twinkie is really pretty “simple” isn’t it? Doing some moderate exercise isn’t particularly complicated either. It just takes some conscious effort. If Covid is as terrible as it’s made out to be, wouldn’t people be willing to put forth a little effort to protect themselves by making some simple lifestyle changes? Is life and health not valuable enough to choose a carrot over a soft drink or a walk listening to a podcast over a Netflix movie on the couch? Masking, social distancing, quarantines, stay at home orders, vaccine mandates are all “easy”, but drinking a glass of water or taking the stairs is too complicated or hard? This is why I can’t take modern western healthcare seriously anymore. We can mandate some mitigations but others just as effective can’t be discussed or advocated for because it might hurt someone’s feelings or it’s too “hard” or “complicated”? Really?

    Of course it isn’t. I’ve posted much about how sedentary lifestyle is responsible in large part for diabetes.

    One low intensity exercise session can lower BP immediately and keep it lower for about 24 hours. Continued low intensity exercise permanently decreases BP making it one of the most effective mitigations of hypertension which is one of the most important Covid comorbidities. But you don’t hear about that or a low salt diet as a way to protect oneself from Covid. This is a mistake. Many have died (vaccinated and unvaccinated) that would not have died had they addressed these comorbidities with simple, cheap, effective lifestyle mitigations. The fact we HAVEN’T heard about dietary salt and Covid is a huge problem. That’s my point.

    Speaking of salts, I’ve also presented studies showing consumption of processed meats is associated with greater odds of severe Covid. But again, this information is not disseminated by public health or healthcare entities. Only research scientists and myself seem to care that very simple lifestyle choices can prevent Covid infection and severe disease as well as increase the immunogenicity and efficacy of Covid vaccines.

    Love to. It depends on the strain somewhat. H5N1 and H7N9 influenza has the ability to directly infect and replicate in endothelial cells. Other influenza viruses don’t seem to have the ability to replicate in endothelial cells to the extent of avian strains, but it’s believed abortive infection does occur, leading to apoptosis and release of inflammatory cytokines and loss of structural integrity. Of course the complete physiological mechanism by which replicating and abortive infections transpire in influenza infection are not fully understood, just like with Covid. You have to remember at one point we believed endothelial tissue was simply structural and had no regulatory functions. Now we know it has many regulatory functions we still don’t understand partially let alone fully.

    Here is an interesting study on in vitro (human lung endothelial tissue) infection with H3N2.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0047323

    The absence of living (at time of passing) infected endothelial cells in the overwhelming majority of influenza autopsies indicates the innate immune system causes the majority of endothelial cells infected to immediately undergo apoptosis, leading to further cascade of cytokine over-expression leading to cytokine storm events as well as “leaky” endothelial tissue resulting in fluid escapes and pneumonia

    Although direct infection of endothelial cells can occur there are other pathways to endothelial dysfunction/damage during influenza infection. Activation of uninfected endothelial cells in proximity to infected epithelial cells is observed as well.

    Here’s on study that gets into this part a little.
    https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/220/11/1859/5529824

    Endothelial cells have immune system regulatory functions in all known viral infections. In some cases there is direct infection of endothelial cells en mass. In other viral infections activation and dysfunction of endothelial cells are a result of other chemokine:cytokine feedback pathways. But the notion only the SARS-CoV-2 virus causes endothelial infection or dysfunction is frankly absurd.

    The above is just an overview, but if not sufficient to demonstrate my point I can get further into known and proposed physiological pathways of influenza effects on endothelial infection and dysfunction/activation.

    At the end of the day, my main point was that the variety of sequelae we observe with Covid is VERY similar to the sequelae we observe with influenza. Yes, physiological pathways between viral infection and subsequent damage to organs can differ—but the resultant sequelae are nearly identical in most cases. I think this is important for people to understand. Covid is not some “never before seen super villain virus” with magical powers over the human body. It’s just a novel virus doing what novel (and even endemic) viruses have always done. And we have non pharmaceutical mitigations available to those who wish for better health. We should be using all mitigations if public health is in fact a priority.
     

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