Maintaining relationships with crazy people

Your prejudice against the mentally ill is noted. I don't share it. And I'm perfectly aware of the difference between psychosis and personality disorders. I would agree that some of the personality disorders, such as antisocial and narcissistic, are beyond help and hurt others. But not all of them. Avoidant, histrionic, borderline, OCPD, etc., are human beings who are suffering and need help. The kind of attitude you are proposing is, well, not helpful.

P.S. - While harm through violence is not the only kind of harm, it is to be noted that only 7% of mentally ill people ever commit any sort of violent act in their lifetimes (and by any sort, I'm including pushing and shoving someone). While this is slightly worse than the stats for the general population, not by much. Someone here mentioned the fear of the mentally ill. Well, 93% of them are 100% harmless.

 

Sad. Bipolar is hard to treat due to the lack of insight that comes with the territory. I am sorry to hear it. This is a difficult situation that often has no solution and ends tragically. But not always, though. Bipolar is treatable. Sometimes even a person with severe Bipolar Disorder can get into efficient treatment (sometimes, court-mandated, as in, via involuntary commitment, which while not ideal, sometimes is the only way), and then, can acquire insight and keep going, with improved acceptance of the treatment. Don't give up on him. Keep trying. It's an uphill battle but not 100% guaranteed to be a losing one.

 

You sound like you have some expertise. Let me ask you about "avoidant personality disorder." I only recently came across this term, and when I read the symptoms, I said "Hey, that's me!" And maybe it is. But ....

It seems also possible that one is simply irritable or hates confrontation due to a kind of cowardice, and that some people get on our nerves to the point where we don't want to be around them or read their belligerent posts online because it's unpleasant and life is short?

How do you draw the line on this? Isn't there such a thing as an avoidant personality that isn't a "disorder"?

 

Like I said, while personality disorders are hard to treat, they aren't totally helpless. Yes, some of them can be helped, depending on what kind of personality disorder. For example, dialectical behavior therapy is an evidence-based treatment for borderline personality disorder with well-documented positive results in some cases. Cognitive behavioral therapy is an evidence-based treatment for personality disorders such as avoidant and obsessive-compulsive with a strong anxiety component. And so on and so forth. Like I said, antisocial and narcissistic personality disorders do appear to be beyond help. Schizoid personality disorder doesn't really seem to require any treatment as the people who have it are loners who don't crave any contact with others and are mostly fine in their odd existence.

 

Yes, we draw the line at functional impairment and significant psychological pain. That's what is required to call it a "disorder." In technical terms, "results in significant distress or impairment in occupational, social, or other areas of functioning." In other words, if you can't function in the normal capacities of an adult life and you are in significant psychological pain and distress due to your personality traits, then it's a disorder. If you have your personality traits (like we all do) but you keep functioning appropriately and you don't experience much distress, then it's your way of existence in this world, and it may be peculiar, unusual, and not shared by most people, but it is not a disorder.

Basically, YOU tell me. If what you experience feels limiting and painful, then you should consider getting some help. If it doesn't bother you, then it's not worth worrying about. Of course, this requires some capacity for insight. Sometimes a person is in denial and doesn't acknowledge that the person's traits are actually limiting, and the person could be doing more in life, if not for his/her issues. In this situation, the input from an external and trusted observer might be instrumental.

Symptoms of avoidant personality disorder include that the person:

(1) avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection

(2) is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked

(3) shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed

(4) is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations

(5) is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy

(6) views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others

(7) is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing

To learn more, look this up:

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/avoidant-personality-disorder-dsm--5-301.82-(f60.6)

 

No, it's nothing like that, to be honest. I do wonder whether I'd be more successful in life if I were more outgoing and open to people that irritate me, but that's probably just shyness.

Now my rubber fetish we can talk about.

 

I appreciate it. Honestly, I think that's what upsets me the most: that he had this under control when he was taking his meds and going to therapy. I can see a path where he gets back on them again, though. He's a good man, despite the difficulties, and he's a better man around children. He's been spending a lot of time around my sister's kids, and the youngest one has (in his four-year-old way) called him out for his mood swings, and I think that may have spooked him.

And it isn't all bad. Bipolar disorder also comes with a ton of creativity, and I have fond memories of growing up with him, even without the meds. I've heard from others, too, who say that their bipolar parent gave them a "magical childhood," and they only started getting worried as they got older. The rage issues were the worst part, but at least he didn't go down the path of excessive gambling/risk-taking that a lot of bipolar people do. I have a disorder of my own that I struggle with, depersonalization disorder, and there aren't really any meds for it. Still, CBT has been working well, and I've learn to accept that it will always be a part of my life and to even accept how it can be my "super power." Oddly enough, learning to accept my episodes when they happen makes them less frequent and less severe, so somehow going out my way not to control it make it easier to control, but I've heard that from other people doing CBT as well.

 

Eccentricities of communication? I wouldn't call that crazy, personally. Actions are more revealing. Look at their life history ... is it stable and functional? Do they maintain stable and healthy relationships? Hold down jobs? Are their finances secure? Do they avoid bad habits? If the answer is yes to these questions, their eccentricities don't mean a thing.

 

I think you're trolling at this point. Thanks a heap.

 

On the contrary, I have a practical approach to it. Dysfunctional people are simply very toxic, and CAN alter their behaviour to be less toxic. We're all obliged to overcome our particular psychological burdens in life if we expect to share our lives with others, and there is no physiological barrier to doing so in the disordered. It's not genetic, it's not traumatic brain injury. It's learned behaviour, usually inherited from a dysfunctional parent. It can be unlearned. Given that, no one is obliged to be supportive if the individual in question is doing nothing to improve themselves.

People don't 'fear' it, they avoid it because it's toxic.

 

Not at all. The best evidence of malfunction is life history, that's why we take histories. The way someone speaks (if only merely eccentric, not completely berserker) is much less relevant.

 

Nice. I like your attitude! Hang on there. Mental illness is tough but it is part of human nature. We are fallible individuals, in our biology, and it is discombobulating when the brain is the organ that sputters. We do our best, and I see that you love your father, and you courageously face your own issues, and this attitude is commendable.

 

That would be nice if it were true. There is abundant research demonstrating the biological bases of many mental illnesses, and their genetic links. Twin studies show a high incidence of the same mental illness if two identical twins are separated at birth and raised in two completely different families and environments. If one of the twins has a disorder, the odds that the other one will have it too, are, for some disorders, 70 times more than what we see in the general population. There is absolutely nothing other than genetics that can cause this effect.

"It's not genetic" - that is contradicted by science, and this simple affirmation tells me that you need to explore this topic more, to fine-tune your views.

Sure, some disorders stem from life experiences and from the consequences of dysfunctional upbringing. But not all of them. Others are very much biological.

Your view amounts to saying "these people are just weak and they need to shape up and get over it." It is a very wrong and unfortunate view. I hope that one day you'll change it.

 

Meds can make you more crazy then when when you were off them.

Mine do.

 

My position is based on years in the field, actually. Enough years to know the DSM is sh!te now that it's been compromised for political reasons. I guarantee there is zero evidence that personality disorders are genetic. None whatsoever. Yet we do know that the BEHAVIOURS associated with personality disorders can be learnt. We see clear evidence of this in relation to removal of the subject from the influence, and rapid dramatic improvement. Twin studies are painfully flawed, and you should stop relying on them. No two children are ever parented the same, but twins WILL be parented more alike than the general population. Until you can invent a perfect measure of parenting, you cannot possibly claim 'it's not parenting'. It's your views which need work, because you've bought into the compromised Western-centric construct that is the contemporary DSM.

Yes, that is exactly my view. These things can be unlearned and/or managed so that there are reduced 'toxic' impacts on the people around the subject, and the subject's own passage through life. It's actually far more 'wrong' to enable them into thinking they don't have to make the effort just like everyone else. You have to remember that without considerable effort either on the part of our parents or ourselves, the vast majority of us would be disordered. Probably less than 50% of us are lucky enough to have the benefit of well adjusted parents, so that means at least 50% of us had to 'get over it'. At the end of the day, enabling is cruel, and very specifically neglectful. It is in fact, what you do when you don't really want to help the person.

 

You are underestimating me and guessing wrong, when you talk about the DSM. You have no idea about my expertise and experience, and about my views regarding nosology and systems of classification (yes, the DSM does have many flaws - and some good parts, too). And pray tell, where did I say that personality disorders are genetic? I said "some disorders" have a genetic substract without specifying which ones.

I find your tone condescending and arrogant, especially when you now appeal to authority (as in, "my position is based on years in the field" - by the way, if those years are not equal to or more than 40 years, then your experience is shorter than mine). Given your dogmatic attitude, I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day. Over and out.