Man sentenced to 20 years for pictures on phone and inappropriately touching child

Discussion in 'Law & Justice' started by kazenatsu, Mar 8, 2022.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think homosexuals and transgenders used to get longer sentences in the past.

    I guess you think discrimination based on factors other than the actual crime is okay.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2022
  2. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Paedophilia is a crime being transgender is not
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Look, if I collected a bunch of pictures of naked geriatric people in elderly homes, which had probably been taken without their consent, I would probably get punished but no one would put me in prison for 20 years.

    Especially if there was no evidence I had been the one who had actually taken those pictures.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2022
  4. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    What evidence do you base this on? It was not in the article.
     
  5. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    Unjust to whom? To the girl he fondled? To the children who were raped to satisfy his perverted appetite? Your capacity for empathy is admirable, I guess, but here it is misplaced.

    That would be your opinion. Luckily for us as a nation, it is not one likely to gain traction among us as a people. It is fraught with an emotional reaction to a verdict most posters on this thread regard as merciful. There were at least two calls for a death sentence. I know that's not allowed for these crimes, but seriously, if this guy can shape himself into something more nearly approximating the norm, there's hope for him to get out. If not, better for him and us if he stays in.
     
  6. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    These were not old people. They were kids. The two are fundamentally different. No one, for instance, is forcing them into sexual congress, the way they do those kids.When you hypothetically sneak pictures and video of old folks having sex, that sex is consensual. I guaran-d**n-tee if you coerced them into it, you be looking at some serious time. If you knew that pictures in your possession came from a crime like that, I'm sure that there's a crime in there though it's too much of a time waster to even google.
     
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think that's the point here. There is no evidence that man pushed any of the persons appearing in his videos to have sex, so how is that really relevant whether the persons in the pictures were coerced or not?

    Isn't having pictures of two old people who consented to sex, but did not consent for their picture to be taken, pretty much just as bad as having a picture of two old people who were not consenting to sex when the picture was taken?

    Why should it really matter whether the pictures come from some terrible crime?
    You seem to just brush over how the terrible crime which was captured in the pictures is actually related to the pictures themselves.

    I'm having difficulty seeing a logical connection in what you are saying.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  8. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    If you took em without consent you might very well get a prison sentence
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is he really responsible for those children being raped? I mean if we do not have any specific evidence that he caused it or contributed towards causing it in any way.

    You seem to be entering some interesting ethical territory. I remember an ethical debate about whether it would be wrong to use medical knowledge to try to treat people if that medical knowledge had been originally obtained through horrific medical experiments done on other people without their consent. Some will argue yes and some will argue no. Is it okay to benefit off the suffering of others? Even though if you do not benefit it will not alleviate the suffering of the victims.

    In Buddhism, you are not supposed to accept meat if that meat was cooked specifically for you, but it is okay to accept the meat and eat it if it was already going to be prepared anyway and you accepting that meat will not contribute in any way to the additional killing of animals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    It does not matter possession of child pornography is and of itself a crime
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you think taking the pictures yourself is different from accepting the pictures from someone else who took them?
     
  12. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Do you think accepting crack cocaine is any different from dealing it?
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In many parts of the Muslim World, if a woman cheats on her husband the punishment is being stoned to death.
    I guess you think that does not matter either.
     
  14. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    In incentivizing the market, he made himself a part of the crime. That is taken into account as part of the crime of possession of kiddie porn. Do we really have to go over this again?

    No. the first is an invasion of privacy. the second includes rape as part of the crime. How are you not getting this?

    The idea would be to see to it that the crime doesn't happen in the first place.

    The pictures are the fruits of the crime.That is the relationship. They are the reason the crime was committed. It really is a very simple concept. Did you take any kind of course in critical reasoning or logic in general? Because the idea that crimes have motives doesn't originate with me. Most people get the link almost intuitively.

    PS: once again you take half of my remark to argue against, this time cutting me off midsentence. That is pretty trashy in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
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  15. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's the society they live in. Try stoning a woman to death here for cheating on you and see what happens. Our rules differ from theirs. For the record, I think our rules are better in most ways than Sharia.

    I do not see the link between infidelity and kiddie porn. Perhaps you can make it clear to me. Infidelity is committed ostensibly by a consenting adult. We do not punish the kids who appear in child porn, we punish the creators and consumers who create a market for their suffering. But maybe you have a different take. Please explain.
     
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  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Both are wrong. The punishment for both is excessive and not right.

    The husband did not consent.

    He "owns" his wife's body in the same way that a person who did not consent "owns" pictures of their naked body.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  17. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Different society different rules
     
  18. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And yet your right wing colleagues were going after kbj for being “soft” when sentencing paedophiles
     
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  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The issue is that you are making the automatic assumption that just because this man had pictures that he contributed towards creating that market.
    That might not necessarily be the case.

    Therein lies a sticky moral/ethical issue.

    Would you be willing to agree that how much this man should be punished should be dependent on how much we think he contributed towards the funding of that market?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  20. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Pictures of kiddie porn do not download themselves. This rock spider will get his just deserts in prison. In general the other prisoners, who often have kids on the outside they are unable to protect, make sure paedophiles know exactly how wrong their impulses and proclivities are
     
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  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pictures do not rape kids either.
    I totally believe in justice. But where is the justice here? Show me specifically what sort of harm was caused.
    I have no problem with you doing anything to them that they did to someone else.
    Would that be any more right than beating up a Black person because some other Black person had assaulted one of your children in the past?
    Aren't you confusing and conflating looking at rape with committing rape?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  22. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    Your opinion. you are certainly entitled to it, but the opinions of either society vary from yours.

    Neither is he punished.

    Not really. In the parts of the Muslim world you are referring to it is closer to chattel slavery than owning the right to privacy and freedom from assault. One more reason Western law is superior to Sharia in my opinion. But Sharia is not the case in point here. This particular piece of human garbage is.You want us to feel sorry for a guy whose crimes carried a possible sentence of 90+ years, but who actually got 20. You seem to think that kiddie porn is a victimless crime and groping a young person isn't really a crime at all. I just can't see it. What this guy did is unadulterated evil. He needs to be punished and reformed. He should stay in prison until he is no longer a menace to our kids. This kind of behavior cannot and should not be tolerated. It should carry very harsh penalties and it does. The only thing I take issue with here is the relative mildness of the sentence. There is absolutely no sense of "there but for the grace of God go I." He did what he did though he knew it carried a high price.

    He got off too light in the opinion of many of the people who posted on this thread, not just mine. You, on the other hand, seem to think it should all be a misdemeanor, that somehow his victims don't count,and that they don't bear real scars due to his actions. Whether you like it or not, sex is one of the primal drives of humans. when he twisted that drive in children, he did real and lasting harm. He should be punished for that.
     
  23. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    He contributed to the market. He was a participant in their rape. Don't be disingenuous.

    The kids in his pictures and videos were raped. That is real harm. there are psychological studies that show the harm to be real and lasting. Google this stuff. Seriously. you have the combined wisdom and knowledge of about 6000 years at your fingertips. You can't look at pictures of cats playing the piano the whole time.

    "An eye for an eye" is not justice. That is vengeance. We have a system which metes out what we by consensus feel are appropriate penalties for crimes.

    You seem to think it's okay in the Arbery case to chase a guy through a neighborhood with guns to 'arrest' him for a crime without evidence of a crime being committed; then, when he resists, you seem to think it's reasonable to shoot him dead in the street. I think your ideas about justice are probably slanted in favor of white males at the expense of everyone else. As a white guy, let me say that it makes me profoundly uncomfortable that you think we need the protection of a biased legal system. Wouldn't it be easier if we all just abided by the laws that society agrees are good and made to protect us all?

    Not at all. In contributing to a crime, one becomes a part of it. Condoning and incentivizing evil is evil in itself.

    Also Rule 303: if you are capable of action to improve a situation, you are morally obligated to do so.
     
  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm just asking us to look at the specific harm caused. It doesn't seem like it was so bad.

    What that guy did to that girl was wrong, but it is the type of thing many fathers might do. I don't think anyone would be questioning what he did if that man had been the girl's father, and he had not had a large collection of illegal pornography.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  25. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    What part of “possession of pornography” are you not getting?
     

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