MASKS- many opinions, swiss-cheese viewpoints from "experts".

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by spiritgide, Jul 30, 2020.

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  1. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    Seems you might be as you seem to be the one having a hard time breathing :D
     
  2. Antiduopolist

    Antiduopolist Well-Known Member

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    Do I?
     
  3. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    Back in the day, they didn't allow visitors in nursing homes at all during flu season. Now every season is flu season. People don't seem to be able to be responsible, so we can't even trust that workers at nursing homes made sure they were clean.

    My neighbor moved her 102 year old aunt out of a nursing home and into her house ,,, for that reason. Doesn't eliminate the need for nurses and caregivers, but at least my neighbor is in control.
     
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  4. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    This is actually a common misconception about wearing masks, and is one that doesn't originate from medical or scientific sources. Hence why no such sources that are cited in this argument. If you want a short scientific explanation of the subject, I would recommend this video, but if you want to skip to the section of the video that is relevant to this topic, I suggest starting at 3:20




    In short, the particles in C02 are actually much smaller than the particles in harmful viruses. The C02 we exhale mostly dissipates through the mask, and no this is not something the varies by age group. Whether you are in your 20s, or in your 80s, the particles in the C02 you exhale isn't contained in the mask nearly enough to be a medical risk. I'll put it to you this way, doctors have been wearing medical masks for hundreds of years as a means of preventing themselves from being exposed to harmful viruses, and they still do to this day. Simply put, it is because masks work. They are not 100% effective, but they definitely do significantly reduce the risk of catching the virus, and unless you have a severe respiratory issue, they are absolutely safe to use (note, this is NOT due to C02 exposure in the mask)

    and if you are still not convinced, allow me to point out that while thousands of people are dying from COVID every singe day, not a single person has died in this crisis from C02 poising as a result of wearing a medical mask, even as people are wearing masks, probably more than any other time in human history
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  5. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is pure pseudoscience. There is no reason whatsoever for anybody to not wear a mask.

    Studies demonstrate that, while wearing airtight N-95 masks for more than 4 hours may cause dizziness, there is no unhealthy accumulation of N-95. And there is absolutely why anybody (not even people with respiratory problems) should not wear a mask.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4469179/#:~:text=The use of an N95,and exercise over 1 hour.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7132714/
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/marsha...and-breathing-warms-the-climate/#3f4893c30f44

    ... and many many more.

    Do not pay attention to those who promote pseudoscience. You will know them because they show NO links, NO studies and NO references to support their nonsense.

    We are before a potentially lethal pandemic. Those who pander antiscience are a huge part of the problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  6. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    A young man, sitting there with zero exertion in the AC. Try that in the Fl heat combined with physical exertion.
     
  7. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    With all due respect- you missed the point.
    Yes, doctors have worn masks for years- most notably to protect patients, particularly surgical ones, for any expired droplets in breath which may contaminate. I have not recommended not wearing masks.
    This post is totally related to the ability to make as complete an exchange of air as possible during respiration. That is something that is affected by many things in the patients- but especially age, condition of the lungs, effectiveness of blood gas exchanges in lung tissues. Most everything has a range of function capacity, above which things seem to work normally- below which, not. When the minimum level is not reached, negative effects begin to occur. While the vast majority of elderly can safely wear masks, especially for limited lengths of time- we have people whose levels of respiratory efficiency are on the line all the time. For them, a 1-2% drop in the quality of blood gas exchange makes the difference. And the mask can make that degree of change for them.

    A loosely related situation might be my yard man- speaking to me normally last saturday, who suddenly fell over like he had been knocked totally unconscious. Been a long time since I had emergency med training but I haven't forgot it all. Quickly checked vitals, knew he was in trouble but not at imminent risk. He woke up- crashed twice more before I could get back with a glass of juice and sugar. Problem? Did not know he had a diabetic tendency; ran low on blood sugar- and when it dropped to a certain level, his brain turned off like a light switch. A few swallows of a sugar rich drink, and he was up an normal again in minutes. I of course recommended he get a CBC and diabetes check asap. Things are not critical most of the time, but it depends on who you are and the conditions. Just because you see no effect in yourself does not mean everybody else is in the same position.

    All through the Covid thing, scientific opinions have been so widely varied they look like opinions collected from a grade school class. IF everything were consistent, cut and dried- they would all be in agreement; but in fact there is obviously a lot more drawn from assumptions than facts. I'm not saying they are fools, I'm saying they too lack sufficient experience with these issues to be true "Experts". .
    Medical errors kill at least 250,000 people per year and are the third leading cause of death in America. I think that should be sufficient to back up what I just stated.
     
  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Are you wearing a mask in the environment where scientific evidence shows infection risk is greatest? If not, why not? Lay the science on us. I’ve been begging for someone to for a week. No takers.
     
  9. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm wearing a mask were it is required by policy, or where I think it is prudent due to circumstances. I do maintain a distancing from people, again as possible. I've never liked crowds, so it's easy for me to avoid them by choice.
    Personally I don't have any solid faith in most of the expertise, but if we are going to err- it should be on the side of safety. I am a firm believer that sunshine and fresh air (open areas) and exercise are particularly beneficial, and raise the strength of our immune systems- which is always a good thing. Too much being cooped up is kind of the opposite of that.
     
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  10. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I agree wholeheartedly on strengthening the immune system and being outdoors or at least in well ventilated areas.

    My question is in part to see if those who follow “expert” advice actually do understand the science. So far nobody does. They don’t realize experts are telling them to wear masks where infections are least likely to occur and advising them to remain unprotected where infections are most likely. When I’ve given the data showing this to be true, anger is the reaction. No data to the contrary can be produced. No logical counter argument can be made. It’s amusing and disturbing.
     
  11. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Weird question. I have never been to an ICU full of infected patients. You didn't say what you're talking about (which you usually don't, for some reason), but sounds to me like that would be the environment where infection risk is greatest if you don't wear a mask.

    And before you go off, as you usually do, in all different directions to derail a thread and change the subject because you have no response to the point I made, make sure whatever it is you're getting at has to do with any of these.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  12. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Your disagreement is not with posters, it's with some of the best scientists in the world.

    Which is quite amusing, I'm not disturbed, though. I am enjoying the schadenfreude..
     
  13. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Quote the science.
     
  14. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Like I said, your argument is with the scientists. There are lots of journals that would love to hear from you.

    I've watched Right wing BS artists scamming their propaganda since the 80s.

    That's all this is.
     
  15. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’ll clarify for you because it’s a fair point I wasn’t clear today. I’m talking about the environment the average citizen is most likely to be infected in. The home.

    But we’ve been over this already. Since ICU’s are your concern, would you wear a mask there if you had to be there?
     
  16. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    What scientists? My posts are based on science. They are not based on media of any kind.

    The science is clear. You are more likely to be infected or infect others at home. Yet nobody wears a mask at home. You were honest and told me why you don’t, but you never presented any scientific evidence for your decision.
     
  17. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    For that to actually work, you would have to have testing come back in a day or two, not a week or two.

    Even then, distancing is really tough in most homes, impossible in some, and a lot of apartments.

    Your goal here is distraction.
     
  18. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    You want people to wear masks at home? Well, that would make sense if you know you are living with somebody who is infected. Or if you yourself are infected. Otherwise... forget the science, how realistic is that? You would need a huge body of evidence that that's significantly effective, if you expect to convince people to do it. Do you have any? Because without it, people would just not take you seriously.

    Huh? Would I wear a mask? I wouldn't go anywhere near one without a proper N-95 mask. Very weird question. Is it possible that you wouldn't? If not, why ask such a strange question?
     
  19. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    How does a mask’s physical properties change based on whether the wearer is tested or not? How would a mask know when you were tested? Do masks only work in hospital settings if workers are tested and then retested? What about Wal mart, is testing required for masks to slow infection rates in their stores?
    All the more reason to mask up. Why does the CDC and WHO say to wear masks in other circumstances where social distancing isn’t possible? Why do healthcare workers wear masks even when they have to be close to patients?
    From what?
     
  20. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    The obvious.

    When you go out in public, wear a mask.
     
  21. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Body of evidence? Do you dispute that masks are effective at reducing the chance of infecting others? You advocate for wearing masks. Why do you do so?

    The science is sound. Wearing a mask reduces the chance you will infect someone by up to 80%. If you have a problem with that number, let me know. We now know masks can protect the wearer, reducing their chance of infection by over 50%. Again, do you accept these numbers? Pre-symptomatic and a-symptomatic spread is a fact. You wear a mask because you don’t know if you are shedding virons or not.

    Want to dispute any of the above?

    Now, masks work at Home Depot. People can be presymptomatic spreaders at Home Depot. Masks work in hospitals. There can be presymptomatic spreaders in hospitals. Masks work outside. Dr Birx says so. Presymptomatic spreaders can be outside, thus the need for masks outside.

    The only place masks don’t stop the spread of this virus is in Golem’s home. It’s a magical place. So magical there can not even be a pre or asymptomatic spreader in his house. We can stop the disease dead in it’s tracks if everyone could fit in Golem’s house. :)

    Just demonstrating the ridiculousness of you wearing a mask in what you say is the most risky environment (ICU) and very low risk environment (public places like stores) but won’t wear one in an intermediate risk area, your home.
     
  22. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    How is my repeated assertions masks work everywhere distracting you from wearing one in public? Are you saying if people wear masks at home they will be too distracted to wear one in public?
     
  23. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's also scary, because when we can no longer use reason or apply common sense to our choices- the majority of them will be wrong.
     
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  24. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    It is a bit concerning. However, from working around numerous species of animals I can say most danger is from unpredictability. An unpredictable creature can harm you.

    I’m actually less and less concerned about these authoritarians because they are highly predictable. Of course the other lesson from lessor creatures is you must be prepared to act counter to the aforementioned predictable behavior. Otherwise you still are subject to harm. :)
     
  25. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I know they're effective outside. You claim they're effective at your home. And you have yet to show any evidence of that. As I said before, it would have to be overwhelming evidence.

    Ohhhh... You meant Home Depot. All this time I thought you meant at home home. Yeah... I would wear them at Home Depot (though Lowe's is closer to where I live) And here I am expecting you to show evidence that they are effective at home. Silly me!

    My God... you're losing it! Take a deep breath. If you feel pressure on your chest, try to cough!

    You want us to call for help?

    Look.... if wearing a mask is 80% effective, that means you go out to Lowe's and, if you're infected, you have a 20% chance of infecting somebody today. If you go again tomorrow, you have another 20%. If you go five days, mask or no mask, you will have infected somebody. But there is a chance that your mask saved up to 4 people from getting infected. You just gave 4 (or so) a chance to go through this unscathed. If you were the idiot who went without a mask, it is guaranteed that all 5 are screwed. If you multiply that by the millions of people who go to Lowe's every day, the number is significant.

    On the other hand, if you are infected at home, you would have a 20% of infecting somebody today, another 20% tomorrow, that's 40%... another 20% the day after... that's 60%. How many days would you need before you have 100% chance?

    This is pure logic inductive reasoning. Not a scientific conclusion. So if you have any study proving that wearing masks at home would significantly reduce chances of getting infected, show it! Not that it would take five days to infect somebody. That won't move anybody In order to implement something like that as a rational recommendation, you would need much much more evidence that wearing a mask, when you don't even know if anybody else at home is infected, makes any significant difference.

    If that's your claim, that's your burden of proof.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020

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