'Mass Arrest' of US Marines on Camp Pendleton

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by APACHERAT, Jul 25, 2019.

  1. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    I rather like that, but I couldn't quite make myself click the "like" button.
    I will keep trying. ;-)
     
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  2. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Stupid, cunning and evil. A trifecta.
     
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  3. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    I've already addressed that - "The whitewashed Haditha trial, the shooting of prisoners, the kidnapping and assassination of civilians with whitewashed trial of the culprits, the personal attacks on whistle blowers - "traitor", "unamerican", "should be executed"

    They do happen frequently with the consequence that whistle blowers are attacked by many, little doubt including yourself, as being a "traitor", "unamerican", "should be executed". Potential whistle blowers know that their freedom would be over if they reported what they witnessed

    It was you who claimed that those responsible for the My Lai massacre were punished, it ended up with one soldier given 3 months and not in a prison cell - another whitewash. Trump even pardoned the soldier who kidnapped a civilian, tortured him and then finally murdering him.
     
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  4. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    "You're either with us or against us" mentality!
     
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  5. Papastox

    Papastox Well-Known Member

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    We don't happen to share the same opinion, but that is how I felt about Obama.
     
  6. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Would any beer that requires a slice of lime to get it down your esophagus be considered a good beer ?
     
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  7. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When I served in the "crotch" we had three service rifles.
    M-14, M-1 Garand and the M-16A1.

    All Fleet Marine Forces (FMF ) aka "Fighting Mother ****ers" were issued the M-14.

    All Marine security forces, Marine ship detachments and Marine Barracks on naval installations were issued the M-1 Garand.

    All Marines who were issued WestPac orders and found themselves in the Republic of South Vietnam were issued the M-16A1.
     
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  8. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    FYI:
    North Vietnam sued for peace after President Nixon started bombing the crap out of North Vietnam and mining their harbors. -> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/10/us/nixon-cites-vietnam-as-his-worst-mistake.html

    When the last American combat troops left the RVN every province in South Vietnam was left in complete control of ARVAN.

    Name one major battle that American troops lost during the Vietnam War (1965-1973) ?

    You can't.
    Even Gen. Giap said after getting his butt kicked a bloody red during the Tet Offensive of 68 that the "American soldier couldn't be defeated on the battlefield." His quote from his autobiography, not revisionist history.

    A 14 to 1 kill ratio isn't to shabby.
     
  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How old were you in 1968 ?

    First of all it were soldiers of the 20th Inf Reg of the Americal Div not U.S. Marines who carried out an unlawful order.

    The U.S. Arny's 20th Reg was well known by both the NVA and VC if being a "pay back" unit. **** with the sokldiers of the 20th Reg they are going to get really mean and pay back time.

    The My Lai Hamlets were VC including the old men, women and children.

    If you ever served "in-country" you would understand.

    Do not use cultural-marxism by judging the past (history) to today's standards. That's revisionism.

    Back in 1971 most Americans especially those who served during WW ll saw things differently.

     
  10. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The military has been, for a long time, made up, among the enlisted ranks, of the less privileged members of society, by and large. They're not the Harvard School of Social Work.

    Take a young man from the barrio, the ghetto, a small town from Iowa --- an American, and therefore largely ignorant of the broader world and its many cultures -- train him to kill, immerse him in an atmosphere of what the snowflakes would call 'toxic masculinity', put him in an environment in which the other side doesn't give a monkey's for the Geneva Conventions, in which the 'friendlies' look just like the 'hostiles' and in fact are often their blood relatives, in which there is no 'front' ... and you're going to get some very nasy incidents.

    When these happen, without excusing their perpetrators, the people who should really be roasted are the higher-ups, the commanding officers.

    I believe a lot of popular lack of enthusiasm to punish the immediate perpetrators comes from a general sense that these boys are, in some sense, being made scapegoats for people higher up who didn't do their job.

    It's not that there is never punishment for violation of the rather clear regulations governing the behavior of our military. A good man, Alan West, was dismissed from the service for something that I think is relatively trivial and which should have earned only a reprimand. A more serious incident seems to have sent another good man over the top, and earned him several years in Leavenworth before his release and pardon by President Trump.

    Some definitely not-good men are doing a lot longer (or have committed suicide in custody), and deservedly so. In many armies around the world, men like this would be sitting around free and laughing and boasting about their exploits. The whistleblowers in this case received the usual death threats from the usual moral midgets, but we can all be happy that their official reception was somewhat different:
    The problem is, our military needs more college graduates in it, to provide moral leadership. So how about requiring military service in return for getting a government loan or for going to a college that get government money. I am sure the snowflakes at Harvard and Yale and Stanford would benefit enormously from a few years in uniform.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
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  11. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I concur.

    How many are aware that in the Pacific theatre of war during WW ll U.S. Marines and eventually army soldiers didn't take prisoners. Even if a Jap waved a white flag and tried to surrender, he was shot. No PRISONERS !

    Jap prisoners were only taken or allowed to surrender after the battle had been won during the mopping up pase the battle.

    There's a reason why American veterans of the Pacific theatre of war during WW ll didn't talk much about their experiences of what really took place.

    It wasn't politically correct what took place and the American taliban left would eventually be trying to topple the Marine Corps War Memorial.

     
  12. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Real men don't need lime. You are confusing it with tequila.

    Vietnam is intact. It is one country as it should be. Vietnam is the last man standing, the U.S. ran. Vietnam won the war. That's the battle the U.S. lost .... the final one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  13. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Update:

    Here's how the arrest of those 16 Marines at Camp Pendleton actually went down

    Every once in awhile I look at who's being court martialed at Camp Pendleton.

    I noticed things are different than back during the "Old Corps"

    There are no longer "red line brigs"
    The most infamous red line brig was at Camp Pendleton and was declared by liberals in Congress to be politically incorrect and all red line brigs and red line stockades in the Army were closed down in early 1970's..

    They no longer drum soldiers, sailors or Marines out of the service. Again drumming out was declared politically incorrect during the early 1960's. It's not PC to embarrass scumbags, cowards and low lifes in the military by having them standing before their company and having their stripes, patches, buttons ripped from their uniforms and then having the scumbags unit called to attention and doing an about face as the scumbag is escorted off the base while beating of the drums.

    What use to get you 90 days in a red line brig, reduction in rank and either returned to duty or an administrative discharge is now a confinement in the PC brig, reduction in rank and forfeiture of pay and given a Big Chicken Dinner. (Bad Conduct Discharge.)


    https://www.mciwest.marines.mil/Por...alResults190524.pdf?ver=2019-05-29-162359-773

    https://www.mciwest.marines.mil/Por...alResults190517.pdf?ver=2019-05-29-162359-650

    https://www.mciwest.marines.mil/Por...alResults190510.pdf?ver=2019-05-29-162359-727

    https://www.mciwest.marines.mil/Por...alResults190503.pdf?ver=2019-05-29-162359-713

    source -> https://www.mciwest.marines.mil/Sta...s-Support-Section-West/Court-Martial-Results/
     
  14. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If there were no Watergate there would be two Vietnams today.

    If there was no Watergate, 2.5 million Cambodians wouldn't have been murdered and there would have been no killing fields in Cambodia.

    June 17, 1972 - Five burglars are arrested inside the Watergate building in Washington while attempting to plant hidden microphones in the Democratic National Committee offices. Subsequent investigations will reveal they have ties to the Nixon White House.

    June 28, 1972 - South Vietnamese troops begin a counter-offensive to retake Quang Tri Province, aided by U.S. Navy gunfire and B-52 bombardments.

    June 30, 1972 - General Frederick C. Weyand replaces Gen. Abrams as MACV commander in Vietnam.

    July 11, 1972 - NVA attack on An Loc is thwarted by South Vietnamese troops aided by B-52 air strikes.

    July 13, 1972 - Paris peace talks resume.

    July 14, 1972 - The Democrats choose Senator George McGovern of South Dakota as their presidential nominee. McGovern, an outspoken critic of the war, advocates "immediate and complete withdrawal."

    July 18, 1972 - During a visit to Hanoi, actress Jane Fonda broadcasts anti-war messages via Hanoi Radio.

    July 19, 1972 - South Vietnamese troops begin a major counter-offensive against NVA in Binh Dinh Province.

    August 1, 1972 - Henry Kissinger meets again with Le Duc Tho in Paris

    August 23, 1972 - The last U.S. combat troops depart Vietnam.

    September 16, 1972 - Quang Tri City is recaptured by South Vietnamese troops.

    September 29, 1972 - Heavy U.S. air raids against airfields in North Vietnam destroy 10 percent of their air force.

    October 8, 1972 - The long-standing diplomatic stalemate between Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho finally ends as both sides agree to major concessions. The U.S. will allow North Vietnamese troops already in South Vietnam to remain there, while North Vietnam drops its demand for the removal of South Vietnam's President Thieu and the dissolution of his government.

    Although Kissinger's staff members privately express concerns over allowing NVA troops to remain in the South, Kissinger rebuffs them, saying, "I want to end this war before the election."

    October 22, 1972 - In Saigon, Kissinger visits President Thieu to discuss the peace proposal.

    Meetings between Kissinger and Thieu go badly as an emotional Thieu adamantly opposes allowing North Vietnamese troops to remain indefinitely in South Vietnam. An angry Kissinger reports Thieu's reaction to President Nixon, who then threatens Thieu with a total cut-off of all American aid. But Thieu does not back down. Kissinger then returns to Washington.

    October 22, 1972 - Operation Linebacker I ends. U.S. warplanes flew 40,000 sorties and dropped over 125,000 tons of bombs during the bombing campaign which effectively disrupted North Vietnam's Eastertide Offensive.

    During the failed offensive, the North suffered an estimated 100,000 military casualties and lost half its tanks and artillery. Leader of the offensive, legendary General Vo Nguyen Giap, the victor at Dien Bien Phu, was then quietly ousted in favor of his deputy Gen. Van Tien Dung. 40,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died stopping the offensive, in the heaviest fighting of the entire war.

    October 24, 1972 - President Thieu publicly denounces Kissinger's peace proposal.

    October 26, 1972 - Radio Hanoi reveals terms of the peace proposal and accuses the U.S. of attempting to sabotage the settlement. At the White House, now a week before the presidential election, Henry Kissinger holds a press briefing and declares "We believe that peace is at hand. We believe that an agreement is in sight."

    November 7, 1972 - Richard M. Nixon wins the presidential election in the biggest landslide to date in U.S. history.

    November 14, 1972 - President Nixon sends a letter to President Thieu secretly pledging "to take swift and severe retaliatory action" if North Vietnam violates the proposed peace treaty.

    November 30, 1972 - American troop withdrawal from Vietnam is completed, although there are still 16,000 Army advisors and administrators remaining to assist South Vietnam's military forces.

    December 13, 1972 - In Paris, peace negotiations between Kissinger and Le Duc Tho collapse after Kissinger presents a list of 69 changes demanded by President Thieu.

    President Nixon now issues an ultimatum to North Vietnam that serious negotiations must resume within 72 hours. Hanoi does not respond. As a result, Nixon orders Operation Linebacker II, eleven days and nights of maximum force bombing against military targets in Hanoi by B-52 bombers.

    December 18, 1972 - Operation Linebacker II begins. The so called 'Christmas bombings' are widely denounced by American politicians, the media, and various world leaders including the Pope. North Vietnamese filmed footage of civilian casualties further fuels the outrage. In addition, a few downed B-52 pilots make public statements in North Vietnam against the bombing.

    December 26, 1972 - North Vietnam agrees to resume peace negotiations within five days of the end of bombing.

    December 29, 1972 - Operation Linebacker II ends what had been the most intensive bombing campaign of the entire war with over 100,000 bombs dropped on Hanoi and Haiphong. Fifteen of the 121 B-52s participating were shot down by the North Vietnamese who fired 1200 SAMs. There were 1318 civilian deaths from the bombing, according to Hanoi.

    1973

    January 8, 1973 - Kissinger and Le Duc Tho resume negotiations in Paris.

    January 9, 1973 - All remaining differences are resolved between Kissinger and Le Duc Tho.

    President Thieu, once again threatened by Nixon with a total cut-off of American aid to South Vietnam, now unwillingly accepts the peace agreement, which still allows North Vietnamese troops to remain in South Vietnam. Thieu labels the terms "tantamount to surrender" for South Vietnam.

    January 23, 1973 - President Nixon announces that an agreement has been reached which will "end the war and bring peace with honor."

    January 27, 1973 - The Paris Peace Accords are signed by the U.S., North Vietnam, South Vietnam and the Viet Cong. Under the terms, the U.S. agrees to immediately halt all military activities and withdraw all remaining military personnel within 60 days. The North Vietnamese agree to an immediate cease-fire and the release of all American POWs within 60 days. An estimated 150,000 North Vietnamese soldiers presently in South Vietnam are allowed to remain. Vietnam is still divided. South Vietnam is considered to be one country with two governments, one led by President Thieu, the other led by Viet Cong, pending future reconciliation.

    January 27, 1973 - Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird announces the draft is ended in favor of voluntary enlistment.

    January 27, 1973 - The last American soldier to die in combat in Vietnam, Lt. Col. William B. Nolde, is killed.

    February 12, 1973 - Operation Homecoming begins the release of 591 American POWs from Hanoi.

    March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam as President Nixon declares "the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come."

    America's longest war thus concludes. During 15 years of military involvement, over 2 million Americans served in Vietnam with 500,000 seeing actual combat. 47,244 were killed in action, including 8000 airmen. There were 10,446 non-combat deaths. 153,329 were seriously wounded, including 10,000 amputees. Over 2400 American POWs/MIAs were unaccounted for as of 1973.

    April 1973 - President Nixon and President Thieu meet at San Clemente, California. Nixon renews his earlier secret pledge to respond militarily if North Vietnam violates the peace agreement.

    April 1, 1973 - Captain Robert White, the last known American POW is released.

    April 30, 1973 - The Watergate scandal results in the resignation of top Nixon aides H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman.

    June 19, 1973 - The U.S. Congress passes the Case-Church Amendment which forbids any further U.S. military involvement in Southeast Asia, effective August 15, 1973. The veto-proof vote is 278-124 in the House and 64-26 in the Senate.

    The Amendment paves the way for North Vietnam to wage yet another invasion of the South, this time without fear of U.S. bombing.
     
  15. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I read somewhere -- in With the Old Breed? -- that early in the fighting a Japanese soldier appeared to surrender, then whipped a grenade out of his loin cloth ... so from then on, no chances were taken. And also that when it was actually desired to get prisoners for interrogation, a month's (?) leave was offered for intact prisoners, who then started to appear. But these stories may be wrong, or not generally applicable. I think the Japanese suffered from their general reputation, which, for their army, was bad even before the war. I think Germans were treated better, with some exceptions.
    There are also other things not to the credit of American armed forces that took place on Okinawa.
    With respect to MyLai ... I don't believe the American public thought it was fine to murder children and rape women. What they did not like, I believe, was the feeling that ordinary soldiers were being scapegoated for failures higher up.
     
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  16. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "The Old Breed" is an excellent read.

    When they needed a Japanese soldier for gathering intelligence they had special units that went out to capture a live Jap.

    Those who served in Vietnam were under the U.S. Military Code of Conduct and being captured or surrendering below the 17th parallel was not an option.

    The My Lai incident...an unlawful order was issued and Lt. Calley carried out that unlawful order.

    All American troops in the RVN came under South Vietnam laws.

    There was no war crime committed so the only crime was murder under South Vietnam's laws and the Saigon government refused to prosecute and actually approved of what happened at My Lai. If it were ARVAN troops the same thing would have happened.

    The ROK Blue Dragon Brigade Marines or the ROK Tiger Division would have likely done the same thing at My Lai.

    So Lt. Calley was charged under the UCMJ.

    Just a different time back then. During the Vietnam War era 80% of all males of the Greatest Generation served in the military during WW ll. They looked at war differently than other generations.
     
  17. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mine is at least informed.
     
  18. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Free speech... not your thing huh
     
  19. rcfoolinca288

    rcfoolinca288 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That you say My Lai was not a war crime is ridiculous. Entire village was wiped including infants. It is beyond disgusting you trying to justify it.
     
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  20. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes and it is interesting that when you morally have no objection to drugs then you see no issue with profiting from such
     
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  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sadly Viet Nam was a war where the US won every major battle and still lost. The usual suspects, politics, corruption and incompetence, lost the war against an implacable ideological foe.
     
  22. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Just an odd obsession for you to have, seems to me. I don't know why you're all into this liberal-bashing thing, but I think it's kind of silly.
     
  23. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    aw I would hate for anyone to think I'm silly :rolleyes:

    Clearly you haven't been paying attention D, Liberalism is not compatible with Democracy nor with Capitalism...I have decided that it poses that much of a threat, I can no longer just sit on the fence, we must all stand against it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  24. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    Hey maybe they think that when the president/ CIC has illegals working on his golf courses and restaurants how bad can it be to sneak them in?
     
  25. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Do tell. What is "liberalism" and how is it incompatible with democracy and capitalism?
     

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