MASSIVE GUN STUDY CONCLUDES: ‘Murder Rates Rise When Guns Are Banned’

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by 6Gunner, May 14, 2019.

  1. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly how the right to self-defense works.
     
  2. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let me ask you this, how would you like being beaten or stabbed for 12 minutes while waiting for a LEO to show up, how about if it was one of your children or a loved one, would you wish that upon them?

    Still waiting for an answer to this.
     
  3. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    There may be few situations in which only immediate lethal force will help you. I don't want to deny that. But that's not the norm
     
  4. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Still avoiding answering the question.

    Let me ask you this, how would you like being beaten or stabbed for 12 minutes while waiting for a LEO to show up, how about if it was one of your children or a loved one, would you wish that upon them?

    Still waiting for an answer to this.

    Try again.
     
  5. mtlhdtodd

    mtlhdtodd Well-Known Member

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    Then I suggest you do not own a gun. Fortunately because of our Constitution I do not have to follow you lead to being defenseless.
     
  6. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    If its not required its not justified and you wouldn't be talking about "legal gun violence" you'd be talking about just regular criminal homicide stats.
     
  7. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    And not every self defense fact pattern ends with a dead criminal or even an arrest or police report.
     
  8. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Then they are being made to suffer the consequences of their own actions. Perhaps criminal individuals should actually refrain from engaging in the commission of various crimes if they are unwilling to face such a fact.
     
  9. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    I would try to keep the attacker busy in any way, until police arrived. I think that's not very difficult.
     
  10. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    The legal system and justice system come into play after the fact, after an act has already been committed. Meaning those who may be victimized by criminals first have to be rendered victims for justice to be had. Ultimately such means one must first be assaulted, murdered, or otherwise subjected to serious harm before the systems can compensate them by punishing the party that caused them harm in the first place.
     
  11. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That would be easy get violently beaten or bleed to death, you really don't live in the real world do you?
     
  12. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    Never forget your gun as Ultima Ratio.

    If the attacker doesn't respond to your efforts to settle the conflict non-violently, then he must bear the consequences.
     
  13. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An trained armed person will always have a better chance of surviving than someone using words to beg for an attacker to stop.

    You can remain unarmed all you want, but do not ever expect anyone else, nor ever try to force someone else into that situation doing so is wrong and immoral.
     
  14. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    Police are not allowed to be charged with torts under the professional standard.
    So they are not applicable to the group "professionals".
    Cops are regular civilians.

    O gee great, thanks. I live 2 miles away from the police station in my town of 100k or so people. Their average response time? Like 5-10 min in my area.
    So I'm only at the mercy of this hypothetical rabid thug you've described for 5-10 minutes. Excellent. I'm sure I'll be fine.

    Also: What makes you think grandma has never shot her gun before?
     
  15. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    The cases you describe are not justifiable homicide so.... those would be found under the criminal homicide stats not what you're calling "legal gun violence".
     
  16. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's what calling 911, this morning could get you.

    Note her current boyfriend responded faster than the Deputies who where called for help.

    PIO Number: 19-5-18


    BSO Case Number: 07-1905-001292

    Date: May 15, 2019

    Time: 7:12 a.m.

    Jurisdiction: Tamarac

    Place of Occurrence: 7907 Catalina Circle, Tamarac

    Victim(s):Rosa Hilda Martinez, 44, 6/24/74, female, 7907 Catalina Circle, Tamarac (DECEASED)

    Suspect(s): Ronny Santana Rodriguez, 43, 6/21/75, male, current address not known (DECEASED)

    Description of Incident:

    A man kills his ex-girlfriend then is shot and killed when he comes into contact with deputies Wednesday morning in Tamarac.

    Shortly after 7 a.m., Regional Communications received a 911 call in reference to a domestic disturbance at 7907 Catalina Circle. The caller advised that a woman was yelling for help.

    Prior to the deputies’ arrival, one of the children called the victim’s current boyfriend. When he arrived, he got into a physical altercation with the suspect. The current boyfriend was stabbed. He was able to retreat, safely get the children and grandmother out of the home and wait for deputies to arrive.

    Broward Sheriff’s Office deputies responded, and at some point they encountered a man, later identified as Ronny Santana Rodriguez, with a knife inside the residence. A Taser was deployed, and deadly force was used. The murder suspect was transported by BSO air rescue to Broward Health Medical Center where investigators said he died at approximately 8:35 a.m.

    The victim, Rosa Hilda Martinez, who lived in the Catalina Lakes townhome with her three children and mother, died at the scene. Fortunately, the rest of the family was not injured.

    https://www.sheriff.org/PIO/BSONews/Pages/DEPUTY-USES-DEADLY-FORCE-AGAINST-ARMED-MURDER-SUSPECT.aspx
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  17. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Pitbull: usually in discussions with gun control advocates I bristle because they come across as totalitarians who hate guns irrationally and just want to strip people of owning what they find personally offensive, and they're willing to lie, cheat, and steal to see their agenda achieved.

    In your case, however, what you write comes across to me as the words of someone who is genuinely interested in pursuing a solution that will make society better and safer, and I can respect that.

    That said, I think your position is one based in some erroneous beliefs. In my case, I'm a former law enforcement officer who has come face to face with the fundamental reality of human evil and, for better or for worse, that is what shapes my response to it.

    I believe in a society dedicated to individual freedom and personal liberty; which means I believe that a free people should be - for lack of a better word - free to live their lives as they choose. This does create situations where people devoid of compunction or conscience find it much easier to engage in criminal acts, and which thus create a greater danger to the honest citizenry; but this risk is ostensibly a worthwhile trade-off for the privilege of living in a more free society. But, if one wishes to live in a truly free society they have to understand that they have certain responsibilities to make that free society a possibility.

    We can't have a police officer on every corner - they call that a police state - and thus one is most likely to encounter a violent criminal without constabulary close at hand. Our own courts have ruled that police have no obligation to defend any one citizen from crime; it is accepted that the ultimate responsibility for one's own personal security lies with the individual themselves. If we have a right to life, then we also possess the right to defend that life if necessary, and as such we have the right to possess the most effective means to conduct that defense.

    You mention the thug versus the 90 pound grandmother and bemoan that the thug "will ruthlessly use his weapon". This is already reality; criminals are amoral, self-serving, predatory animals. They are seeking weak, defenseless prey. They seek overwhelming advantage and are ruthless in pursuing their attacks; this has been true since the dawn of humanity. You speak of "the difference between civilization and barbarism", yet the most civilized societies regularly required their youth to be able to "ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth" before they were accepted to be adults, and the civilized people maintained skill-at-arms and were rarely if ever without the tools of self-defense. Those tools might be a dagger, a rapier or a pistol, but the civilized were always equipped with something... and would-be thieves and robbers often broke and ran when they realized they were faced with a stalwart would-be 'victim' who was prepared to fight back.

    There will always be more honest citizens than criminals. When criminals realize they are likely to face staunch opposition by their would-be victims they are prone to leave people alone. Yes, there are those truly monstrous, sub-human creatures that will only seek to be even more brutal... which is why it behooves people to be as effectively prepared to respond to savage assault as is humanly possible. Criminal assault is rare, but it would be even more rare if criminals knew they were as likely to face being struck down in their tracks as to find a helpless victim to brutalize.

    It is my belief that our mistake as a free society is not compelling more people to take responsibility for their own security. Too many today reject personal responsibility and demand someone else "do something" to keep them safe, and this only empowers the criminals and in our free society gives them a larger pool of victims to brutalize and the confidence to continue their savage ways.

    At this point I think that if the American citizenry as a whole stood up for themselves and trained and prepared themselves for self-defense we would see at first see an increase in rates of self-defense shootings and a temporary spike in overall violence.... and then the criminals would shrink back in horror as more and more of their number were killed/wounded/captured, and we would see our overall rates of crime and violence plummet dramatically.

    If we are to remain a truly free society this is the only viable solution. Otherwise we might as well throw the entire Constitution out the window and give up on the concepts of Freedom and Liberty altogether.
     
  18. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Sorry, no. Most people can't call 911 until after the assault is over. If the assault is brutal enough, the 911 call will never be made. Better that someone have the means and the wherewithal to fight back.
     
  19. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Then we should make sure that everyone is provided proper training.
     
  20. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    There is a saying: "Those that surrender essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
     
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  21. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    What suggestion do you have for the 80-yr old lady under attack by a 250lb thug 1/4 her age?
     
  22. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Call 911 and get killed would probably be the answer.
     
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  23. Galileo

    Galileo Well-Known Member

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    Ever notice how gun apologists seem to live within their own heads and are out of touch with what happens in the real world? Sure it's possible that a woman may defend herself with a gun against a 250 pound thug. However, the far more likely scenario is that a gun that is kept in the home for self defense is used against a woman by her own husband/boyfriend.

    Pull your head out of the sand. Open your eyes. Stop speculating and start looking at what happens in the real world. The lax gun laws you support have fatal consequences. Can you live with that?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  24. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Except for the fact that such is not actually what Arthur Kellermann stated in his supposed "study" on the matter.

    Then cite them. Show these supposed "fatal consequences" that stem from firearm-related restrictions simply not being strict enough to prevent them from physically occurring.
     
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  25. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Yet guns, even in the hands of the untrained have saved lives...in some cases, while the intended victim was on the phone with 911.
    BTW, there are many with firearms that aren’t professional LE or military that are better trained.
    I have posed this question many times, receiving not a single answer from a GCA... what constitutes being trained and what should be included in a a GCA acceptable trading program?
    Also, tell me, where do you think it would be possible that no one would have access to guns in this reality?
     
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