Medieval Myths- the Crusades

Discussion in 'History and Culture' started by 1stvermont, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. 1stvermont

    1stvermont Active Member

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    So in other words you have proven my prediction. I will repete it here


    So what I have found happens often is some people google the first article they can find that tells them what they want to hear. They than post it thinking or wanting it to be true and support their narrative they desire. When they are challenged to support the claimed myths in the article [the authors could not even defend the claims] and are given sources/facts that refute those claims, they stand alone and are unsure what to do as they have supported a myth. This has just happened above.



    You added some nice logical fallacies in there but of course no support or evidence for any of the claims you support from your higher power the guradian. Of course i am not at all surprised as my prediction said this is what would happen. So since you refuse to debate and support claims i will refute the rest of the claims from the article just for fun.


    Obama’s statements therefor reflect well-accepted historical knowledge.


    The first claim being anything said by Obama must be true and are "well accepted historical knowledge" of course as i showed the leading medieval historians would differ with that claim as far as it being true. But it is true in that many accept the myths given in the article. The reason I already gave.


    Its a great example, we can believe the common myths about the crusades if we read only unsupported politically motivated articles and give them papal infallibility while throwing our brains out the winder and refusing to read about the crusades from heretical sources [actual medieval historians, books, original sources etc ] or we can read leading historians such as some of the books below. But if we do that we can no longer believe the myths since they will actually support their position with historical fact and original sources. So unless we are politically motivated to deny truth in search of political correctness, we can learn what actually happened."



    So if it is accepted by many Guardian reads/authors, that just proves my earlier quotes.



    "Medieval historians have long known that popular culture image of the crusades has nothing at all to do with the events themselves"
    -Thomas Madden Professor of History and Director of the Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies at Saint Louis University


    "Many in today's society believe the false history presented by critics. Enforced by the media, Hollywood and other outlets, popular perception of historical events reigns supreme even when that perception is completely at odds with historical reality"
    -Steve Weidenkompf The Glory of the Crusades


    Great historical myths die hard....writers continue to spread traditional myths....even though they are fully aware of the new findings. They do so because they are determined to show that religion, and especially Christianity, is a dreadful curse upon humanity.”
    -Rodney Stark Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History

    It is so easy, in fact, to manipulate history... for a public that is not knowledgeable about it. We have nearly daily evidence of this on television”
    -Regine Pernoud Those Terrible Middle Ages Debunking the Myths Ignatius press San Francisco


    "The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history"
    -Milan Hubl, Czek communist


    If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded.”
    -Karl Marx




    Of course what is important is what is true not believed by faithful guardian readers.



    The Inquisition led to the execution of many people guilty – at most – of thought crime.


    I want you to support this claim as well. To tell the truth of the inquestions we must once more go to actual medieval historians rather than unsuported political claims.


    Medieval Myths- the Inquisitions
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/medieval-myths-the-inquisitions.564748/




    Christianity has been regularly and explicitly used to justify colonization, slavery, cultural destruction and racial discrimination. These are simply undisputed facts,



    I would love for you to support this. To refute read the following.

    The Middle Ages- The Dark Ages?
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/medieval-myths-the-dark-ages.564747/

    Medieval Myths- Democracy is a Better System Than Monarchy
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...racy-is-a-better-system-than-monarchy.564758/


    I am also wondering as a secularist, how can you say slavery/racism/colonization etc are wrong? how do you justify them as a moral wrong if atheism be true? I like forward to the answer.
     
  2. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank You
    But, you quoted me and I only mentioned the Crusades got
    Europe involved in trade for items Europeans enjoyed in the Holy Land.
    Why involve my quote with your greed etc. points?
    I do not see the linkage.

    ttfn
    :blowkiss:
     
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  3. 1stvermont

    1stvermont Active Member

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    NP. must have misread.
     
  4. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    mind providing a valid argument that they are re-writing rather than stating the true history...

    perhaps it is the 'learned' history that is the re-written version...
     
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  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Christians suffered persecution and second class citizenship status in the muslim areas.
    Often progressive academics like to exclaim that the Jews/Christians were "tolerated", but that really doesn't show the whole picture.
    Blacks in the Jim Crow South had it better than Christians in the Middle East at that time. For one thing, there was the oppressive jizya tax non-muslims had to pay, and for another thing, Christians were often not able to get justice because it required more witnesses for a Christian to make a case against a muslim. Lastly, Christians could often be killed by muslim mobs based on accusations (like that an individual said something blasphemous against Islam), and the local authorities often would not bother trying to bring the perpetrators to justice. Christians easily faced death if they stepped out of line. Converting a muslim to Christianity was also a cause for a death sentence, which was a difficult thing because the Christian religion placed an importance on evangelization.
    Thus it's not much of an overstatement to say that the Crusades were to liberate the people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  6. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    See post #11 above.
     
  7. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @1stvermont

    Why So Many Medieval Threads ?


    Trying to create Medieval Burn Out! :hmm:



    Most here don't even believe in the Medieval Climate Optimum
     
  8. 1stvermont

    1stvermont Active Member

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    I go through phases.
     
  9. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    PLEASE,
    consider sparing the rest of us your phases

    and promoting threads that will garner discussion.
    One Medieval Thread would have been sufficient.


    Like "All Things Medieval"
    where the role of the Climate Optimum might be included.
    Without it Euros would not have the energy for the Crusades
    and Vikings would have stayed in their Baltic area! Si?




     
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  10. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    and post #11 points to someone else's version of history...

    lets dissect that... history: HIS STORY...

    STORY definition: a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct (indoctrinate) the hearer or reader; a tale.

    HIS definition: of or relating to him or himself especially as possessor, agent, or object of an action
     
  11. 1stvermont

    1stvermont Active Member

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    lol. You could always skip them or not read them. I think that is what most would do. But imo their is so much to discus on each subject they deserve their own thread.
     
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  12. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @Blaster3 too



    Okay
    Could the Crusades have happened had it not been for Climate Change :eekeyes;
    The transition of Europe from colder to warmer and agricultural & population surpluses.




    The Medieval period should really be discussed in 2 phases.
    The Dark Ages when is was colder and wetter and history duller -
    and the Medieval Climate Optimum that produced agricultural and
    population surplus. Like the 1200BC of Western History.
    The Warm Up supplied the energy for the Crusades.
    And why have Euros fighting Euros when they can be motivated
    to go fight over there. ​


    Si?



    Deus vult y'all and climate change too :roflol:
     
  13. 1stvermont

    1stvermont Active Member

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    I think using the climate as our only why of understanding history is to miss history and forces all conclusions into a preconceived worldview.
     
  14. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    and here we have it folks, global warming caused all the murderous rampages of the religious dictators... it's no wonder we're still experiencing 'mass killings', it's warm outside :rolleyes:
     
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  15. 1stvermont

    1stvermont Active Member

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    But wait for it to get cold. We will all get along in a utopia. We will all become white western liberals and the earth will look kindly on us because we voted democrat and we will return to a time when the climate does not change [never happened] and is idealistic.
     
  16. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then YOU need to stop studying HERstory and
    learn some History! ​

    Peasants were recruited for the Crusades.
    People with no property nor any counting of wealth.
    How YOU going to feed them?
    How YOU going to recruit them?
    Unless there were lots of extras in Europe, in people and "wealth".

    Climate change creates a major role in World History.


    IceAges.gif

    You may discredit the source of the above but the facts of
    warmer / colder climate remain.
    1200BC NEVER FORGET
    That's the time of the juiciest stories of Middle East & Egyptian history
    Not HERstory, like revisionist crap that the ancient Egyptians were Black.


    The Medieval Climate Optimum made the Crusades possible. Amen


    DeusVult-1.jpg

    Truly, this far in your Medieval threads I believe you are a stooge
    or playing "us" as stooges.

    Which is it per your "phases"?



    I always liked history and the deeper one delves the more fascinating.
    I sense your depth as shallow and dependent on some biased historian diving for dollars as your reference points.
    History is not just about the superficial events but such underlying factors that contributed to their occurrence.
    Demonstrate "some" for us as I have, climate
    and the Medieval Warm Up making the Crusades possible.
    Similar the the Viking break out from the Baltic areas.



    Moi :oldman:





    Is @1stvermont
    :flagcanada:
    Playing "us" as stooges?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  17. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wrong
    Climate Change not just warming.


    Cheap shot @Blaster3
    I know you wiser than that!
     
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  18. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    couldn't help myself...

    anyways, it's quite plausible that the crusades were more about the volcanic activity than the change in climate... couped up, scurrying 'round tryin to avoid all that ash & lava the frustrations that were 'pent up' must have been unbearable, then one day, the skies clear, quiet sets in and 'boom, let's go invade some mother f*ckers...
     
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  19. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lebensraum

    One day the sky clears and crops are more bountiful.
    Marsh land dries and becomes agricultural fields. Very fertile.
    Population increases.
    And Euros are increasingly making war within Europe.
    Send the extras, the surplus to the Holy Land.
    700 AD No surplus. Get It Or Not.



    Similarly the Little Ice Age brought about starvation in France and the revolution.
    The steppes drying up drove the Mongols west. Or was it the Huns, or Goths.

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  20. 1stvermont

    1stvermont Active Member

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    Very hard to read but So your saying the medieval warm period made the crusades possible. I would say perhaps it helped support the troops with food. But here are some issues. The crusades lasted long after the warm period in fact into the little ice age. Thus we see crusades during the coldest and warmest time periods.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades


    The cause of the crusades had nothing to do with temperature but historical events as my op shows. Food and supply were brought by sea and bought by land the entire time. It was not a good harvest that they said hey, lets take back the holy land now. And lastly the crusades were able to happen due to finical input by the Lords. Not food from the peasants.


    "This charge can be easily debunked with the simple fact that going on Crusade was an extraordinary expense—costing a knight four to five times his annual income. From being enriched, the vast majority of Crusaders suffered financial hardship as a result of their participation. Indeed, in order to finance such an expensive undertaking, many knights and their families sold or mortgaged their land and possessions"
    -Steve Weidenkopf The Glory of the Crusades


    Popes, Bishops, and Kings started taxing their people to help pay for the crusades because no one could afford to go. Many kings spent the nations entire treasury and multiple years worth of income of the entire country just to fund a large crusade. Knights sold vineyards, mills, inheritance, land and even entire counties to help pay for the voyage. The church helped fund the crusades with taxes. One observer said of Richard the lionhearted “put up for sale all he had, officials, Lordships, Earldoms, Sherrifdoms, castles, towns, lands, everything.” When the french King left the third crusade to improve his position in France Richard said “We, however, place the love of god and his honor above our own and above the acquisition of many regions.”



    Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt...Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.”
    -Thomas Madden


    Most went at immense personal cost, some of them knowingly bankrupted themselves to go...crusading was very expensive undertaking...the best estimates is that a typical crusader needed to raise at least four times his annual income before he could set forth.””
    -Rodney Stark God's Battalions Harper one 2009



    The cliche of younger sons being drawn to the Jerusalem adventure contains no truth. Almost by definition leaders were, if not all eldest sons, possessed of significant patrimonies of their own.”
    -Christopher Tyerman Gods war a new history of the Crusades Harvard U Press Cambridge Mass 2006
     
  21. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    weather has always played it's part in all things human... including warfare and genocide

    to avoid human conflict, one must seek out a cold, inhospitable environment... canada anyone
     
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  22. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :blahblah:
     
  23. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    That chart is a massive LOAD of BOVINE EXCREMENT!

    One of the clowns who produced it doesn't even have a college degree and their website contains Conspiracy drivel about Chem trails and other such inane claptrap.
     
  24. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Bible tells of the Hebrews need to "sojourn" in Egypt.
    The Medieval Warm Up is well documented in historical records as is the Little Ice Age.

    As a fan of history, I find the warm up and cool downs fit amazing circumstances in History.
    Now go back to your HERstory.

    Argue about the accuracy, well maybe the amplitudes assigned.
    No College Education
    :rolleyes:

    Was there a Little Ice Age?
    Was there a Medieval Warm Up?
    Please share with "us" YOUR truthiness!



    Do you like this chart better?
    The ups and downs pretty much match the other chart above.

    IceAges-1.jpg


    Moi :oldman:






    No :flagcanada:
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
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  25. UprightBiped

    UprightBiped Active Member

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    we certainly can...IF we agree it is true of all parties concerned.



    In essence your article is little more than an transparent attempt to rationalize and justify your political perspective.

    At least I hope that it is, if not, it shows a staggering lack of discernment.
     

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