Migrants clash with Greek police at border after Turkey opens floodgates

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Thedimon, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You consider the 60 or 80 (?) illegal Greek paramilitaries, that had gone to Cyprus a nation of 600 thousand as being equivalent to an invasion by thousands of men and tanks, and by a nation that was 60 million strong? Strange!

    You forget that 89% of the people on Cyprus before Turkey began importing Turks from the mainland to change the demographics were Greek, and that they wanted to unite with Greece the way Crete and the other Greek majority lands did. Also that Cyprus was promised to Greece by Britain during WWI and again during WWII.

    So let me ask you, what if the Greeks did to the 25 thousand Turks in Thrace, what the Turks did to the half million Greeks in Constantinople, then what? Would you be screaming genocide because Turks are being killed and ethnically cleansed, while as long as it is Greeks and Christians it doesn't matter?

    The problem is that Cyprus is a very strategic area like Crimea, so what the people wanted didn't matter. Turkey being an opportunist nation, saw that Kissinger was in charge, so they invaded.



     
  2. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not lying, I merely quote what I read - and it was years ago, so it might not be accurate. I assumed it was from the historian Durant, but the book is much to thick to find anything so I gave up. Now though that I think of it, you are probably right. The reference was probably to the sacking of Constantinople in 1204 by the 4th Crusade, since the city did fall into decline afterwards. The population had dropped from a million in its heyday to 40,000, so it really didn't seem possible to me that those institutions would still exist.

    After the sacking, all of Greece became colonies of France and the Italian city/states so that Athens, which was preferred by the Florentines to their own beautiful city, became a nothing under the Turks. Even before the 4th Crusade though, there had been ongoing commerce with Venus and Genoa, which means that the Greek teachers and classics probably entered Italy even earlier.
     
  3. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think that you are being very deceptive. The Greeks invaded Cyprus, not the Turks.
     
  4. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    You apparently don't know what a lie is. What you claimed is factually wrong, either deliberately or out of ignorance. Your claims re Constantinople are false, your claims re Italy asking Germany for help are false, your claims re Germany not offering any help are false.
    It takes merely a few minutes of checking, instead you, time and again, choose to post nonsense, in other words - lies.
    Germany has not refused to sent Italy help in the Corona crisis. Maurizio Massari, the Italian permanent representative to the European Union, asked the EU for help and criticized their slow response, thus China was the quickest to react. Most certainly also in order to polish up their reputation around the world.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-italy-needs-europe-help/

    In the meantime, Cuba & China have sent medical staff & equipment, Germany has sent protective gear and medical equipment, Russia has sent medical staff and virologists, etc.
    https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/corona-hilfen-italien-101.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  5. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

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    I answered your question as to where I got the photo.
    But if you want more
    [​IMG]
    Parkfield school Birmingham

    [​IMG]
    Clifton Primary school Southall
    And to move away from schools to just one of the many 'grooming' gangs that prey on young girls in Huddersfield
    [​IMG]
    And no, the BBC is not a cover for Stormfront
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45918845
     
  6. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    No no... I meant that ancient foto and that semi present foto.. you probably got that from stormfront.
    As for your grooming gang. Maybe we should put up a foto who is raping all them people in churches.
    I'm like to see what skin color they got.
     
  7. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I only know what I read on sites that I found to be more honest than the corporate owned MSM. But look, if you want to persist in name calling and ad hominem attacks, then be my guest.

    According to Greek sites that are not corporate owned, Russia, China and Cuba are the only nations helping Italy. And according to RT, 14 Russian cargo planes packed with medical supplies have arrived in Italy.


    According to a Serbian site, Serbia also asked Germany for help, even though it is not in the EU, and they too were refused. Poland in the meantime wouldn't allow the Russian planes to land at Warsaw en route to Italy, and they had to fly 1,000 kilometers out of their way. In response to the lack of compassion, Moscow stated that they will never again meet Poland half way on anything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
    Moi621 likes this.
  8. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The last time Greece fought the Turks was in 1923. The Greek army never fought in Cyprus, it was a small paramilitary group that had nothing to do with the Greek government. Athens wanted to send troops and help the Cypriot people when Turkey invaded, but Kissinger told the Greek government that if they did, he would stop all supplies.

    Because of what Kissinger did to Cyprus, President Ford lost the next election because of a lack of funds in the Republican Party, and Carter became president. After that, the Republican party wouldn't touch Kissinger and he has never held public office since.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  9. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Has nothing to do with ad hominem attacks, if you post lies, it's your responsibility.
    The idea that something which is reported on a so-called main stream site must automatically be dishonest is utterly absurd, just like the idea that a non main stream website must be more honest because it's not main stream. I've posted links and you still make false claims, in other words lies. Serbia asked the EU via the European commission for help but at that time the commission had limited the export of medical equipment to countries outside the EU. Serbia has not even remotely been hit as hard as Italy or Spain.
    Regarding Italy, you're wrong again. As long as you continue making false claims despite info on the contrary, you're posting lies.
    https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/20...n_milione_di_mascherine_all_italia-251219227/
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-to-send-face-masks-to-italy-to-help-deal-with-coronavirus/
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  10. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pure rubbish. You'll also be telling me that the U.S. had nothing to do with the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.
     
  11. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Whenever someone accuses another of something, I always take a good look at them because it's usually a reflection of themselves. Am I the liar then, and am I the one with an agenda, or is it you?

    According to the former Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini, the EU’s initial response to the massive outbreak of coronavirus in Italy was largely “inadequate,” and a lack of European solidarity opened the doors for Russia and China.

    The EU clearly underestimated the virus, blaming the outbreak in Italy on its national healthcare system flaws, according to the two-time foreign minister and OSCE representative. As a result, Brussels, which preaches pan-European solidarity, failed to act when this solidarity was needed in the face of a crisis that eventually affected the entire bloc.

    Frankly speaking, Brussels is not doing enough. At the very first moment, Italy was practically alone against the virus. Many said it was all because of the Italian habits, because Italians do not respect the rules. Suddenly, they realized all the other countries were equally affected.

    https://www.rt.com/news/483897-italy-eu-coronavirus-solidarity-russia/
     
  12. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Take a good look? Please do that. Feel free to check my sources, which you obviously haven't done as they contradict your narration, and feel free to point out were I made false claims. It really seems you're completely unaware how you're changing your tune. You claimed Italy asked Germany for help, all of a sudden you're changing that to Italy asked the EU, which, btw, is exactly what I sourced because your initial claim was false. You also claimed that only Russia, China, and Cuba have helped Italy, which is also false. You want some more sources for that? The ones I provided were apparently not clear enough for you.

    I never claimed that Brussels acted approriately, thus there's no reason to change the topic and use verbal gymnastics. Btw, in the meantime German planes brought several tons of medical equipment to Italy and Italian planes brought a group of patients from Lombardy to Saxony as Saxony's prime minister Michael Kretschmer had offered help for Lombardy's overwelmed hospitals.
    https://www.thelocal.com/20200324/german-state-of-saxony-to-take-in-italian-coronavirus-patients
    https://berlinspectator.com/2020/03/24/germany-treats-italian-and-french-coronavirus-patients/


    North Rhine-Westphalia, one of the corona hot spots in Germany is also taking in patients from Italy.
    https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/covi...atienten-aus.2932.de.html?drn:news_id=1113783

    Try reality next time and don't expect others to follow RT or sputniknews.
     
  13. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I tried to run through all the documents, but they are much too long. According to the document the Greeks were allowed to have forces on the island and there were Greek officers embedded with the National Guard.

    At the time, there was ongoing political friction between the different political parties in Cyprus, and an attempted coup to overthrow President Makarios that Echevit wanted in office, but Washington felt he leaned too much towards Russia. The CIA tried to assassinate Makarios quite a few times.


    Greece never entered the war against Turkey. That the junta was not able to come to the support of the Cypriot people because of threats from the US, was so upsetting to the Greeks, that the government fell.

    As for Kissinger, what he did to Cyprus offended some very large donors to the Republican Party and he was never able to hold political office again. This is the conversation at the time of the invasion:

    Secretary Schlesinger:

    I don’t think we can get an accurate picture of the balance of forces because the only thing we have is a ceasefire. They (Turkey) can bring in more troops under a ceasefire, reinforce here and there. That would change the whole picture.
    Secretary Kissinger:

    It is against our interests to have the Greeks in there. A strong Turkish presence would be highly desirable. What went wrong, anyway?
    Mr. Colby:

    They (Greek Cypriots) have turned out to be tough.
    Mr. Ingersoll:

    How much ammo is on the island?
    Mr. Colby:

    Lots of it. Every male over the age of 12 has a gun and lots of ammunition.
    Amb. McCloskey:

    That’s right. Also, Sampson opened up all the caches.
    Mr. Lauder:

    They have also received weapons from the Palestinians.
    Secretary Kissinger:

    From Fatah?
    Mr. Lauder:

    Yes.
    Mr. Colby:

    All the Greeks on the island are cleaving together on this thing. They all act as one against the Turks.
    Secretary Kissinger:

    Then once we have a ceasefire, we have a united populace.
    https://2001-2009.state.gov/documents/organization/96610.pdf

     
  14. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To add to the EU lack of help to Italy in its time of need.

    Russia has encountered problems in delivering humanitarian aid to Italy, because of the hostilities many European Union/NATO countries have towards Russia. Yesterday, Poland would not let Russian planes pass through its airspace to arrive in Italy. This might have cost lives since the planes had to make a 1,000 kilometer detour over the Black Sea, Turkey, Greece and Albania. Russian Senator Alexei Pushkov said: "This is meanness at the level of public policy.”

    Rome for weeks has been calling for assistance from the European Union, who have all but done nothing to help the struggling country. As Matteo Salvini, leader of the Italian nationalist League party said in reference to the economic policies of the European Union: “Italy needed help and it has been given a slap in the face,”

    Every European Union country has been left to fend for itself and rather it has been China and Russia who have mobilized their doctors, manufacturing and medical equipment to assist Italy. It is for this reason that across Italy, people have been begun removing the European Union flag from public display and replacing them with Russian and Chinese flags.

    https://theduran.com/poland-sabotages-russian-coronavirus-relief-efforts-for-italy/



     
  15. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    You're spreading lies again. Sad that there are people who seriously think that the duran is a reliable source. It's quite well-known as a 'questionable source based on far right wing bias, promotion of Russian propaganda and right wing conspiracies, a lack of transparency, use of poor sources and plagiarism.'

    One critical look at a variety of media outlets paints a very different picture and shows how wrong you are. Italy's president Sergio Matarrella published a letter to his German colleague Frank Walter Steinmeier thanking him for the support and for sending medical equipment.
    https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/art...-Deutschland-bleibt-Italiens-Weg-erspart.html

    I'm not surprised that there are people who seriously believe Salvini's words, unfortunately, that says pretty much everything, you're simply not interested in real facts; your agenda is very obvious.
    As for your claim "every country has been left to fend for itself", that another lie. As I already linked above, Germany has sent medical equipment to Italy and is taking in patients from Lombardy and from Alsace (East France).
    https://www.france24.com/en/2020032...ally-ill-from-virus-hotspot-in-eastern-france

    Switzerland has joined. three German states have opened their hospitals to patients from eastern France. Hospitals in bordering Switzerland have done the same. https://apnews.com/b927ec0af1fbc928dd6b5ffdbbfcd0f4

    Austria has sent a convoy to South Tirol.
    https://www.suedtirolnews.it/politi...esterreich-schickt-hilfskonvoi-nach-suedtirol

    The mayor of Bergamo, Giorgio Gori, gave an interview in which he spoke about the mistakes the local as well as the federal government in Rome made during the early stages of the crisis.
    We could have reacted faster. For example, a red zone could and should have been established in Valle Seriana here in the Bergamo region. We requested this. It was clear that there were many corona cases in the hospital of the neighboring village of Alzano. It was just like in the hospital in Codogno, where a red zone with 50,000 inhabitants had already been established on Feb. 23 for that reason. But they didn’t do it for us. It took a few days before the government finally moved to shut down all of Lombardy and 14 other provinces in the north.
    https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...e-left-a-ffd1c9b6-8d2c-42c9-baa9-a578d185e90a
     
  16. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's a few excerpts from Gatestone:

    Since the outbreak of coronavirus in Italy, Italians have learned that other European Union member states do not always practice the beautiful words that they like to preach -- especially solidarity.

    The EU even has a specific unit, the Emergency Response Coordination Centre (ERCC). This is where Italy appealed for help at the beginning of its coronavirus crisis -- and received in return exactly nothing. "We asked for supplies of medical equipment, and the European Commission forwarded the appeal to the member states," Italy's permanent representative to the EU, Maurizio Massari, told Foreign Policy. "But it didn't work."

    In addition, Germany and France, leading EU member states, even imposed bans or limitations on the export of facemasks and protective equipment.

    What the coronavirus crisis reveals is that the member states of the European Union will revert to national interests when extreme circumstances call for it. While such revelations may not spell the immediate end of the European Union, they certainly raise questions about the point of an organization that pledges solidarity as a founding principle, but abandons that principle the moment it is most called for.

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15774/european-union-the-end
     
  17. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    The duran, sputniknews and gatestone, what's next, Breitbart? You probably even consider these reliable sources, I assume. It seems you're completely unaware of the term 'political agenda'. Ever heard of critical thinking?
    You very obviously don't realize that the criticism that Brussels acted too slowly and France & Germany put a temporary ban on the export of protective gear is a) nothing new, and b) a thing of the past.
    I posted numerous recent links that illustrate the current situation, while you simply keep repeating the same tune over and over again and add your little lies. You apparently don't like the simple fact that German and Swiss hospitals are taking in Italian patients. It's utterly absurd that you should have a problem with that. The end of the EU has been predicted for decades, strange that it's still there. What I find equally absurd is that now all of a sudden you seem to be aware that Italy asked the EU for help and not Germany as you claimed several times. Contradicting oneself doesn't really add to one's credibility.
    Btw, the Polish foreign ministry has published an official statement that Russia never asked for permission to enter their air space. So, we can believe whomever we want. Might want to check infowars for further news.
     
  18. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's something from the same article in Gatestone on the Greek border crises. It seems Merkel has succumbed to Erdogan's blackmail, and 150 buses are ready to ship the migrants back to Istanbul. I guess Erdogan's just waiting for his money now.

    "...The current crisis on the Greek-Turkish border has shown the EU not only as unhelpful, but an actual liability: The EU left an already overwhelmed Greece to deal with the migrant crisis -- manufactured by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan for political gain …" -

    "...On top of Europe's attempts to deal with the coronavirus outbreak, the EU Commissioner for Home Affairs, Ylva Johansson, ordered that Greece must allow the migrants that Erdogan transported to the border to apply for asylum. Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis had announced earlier that Greece was suspending all asylum applications based on article 78 (3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union …"

    "...Ylva Johansson, however, said that the commission would not propose suspending the right to asylum: "Individuals in the European Union have the right to apply for asylum. This is in the treaty, this is in international law. This we can't suspend."

    "...Suspending all common sense, however, is apparently something of which the EU is fully capable. As Johansson was making her irrational demands to Greece at a time when Europe was at a breaking point grappling with the coronavirus outbreak, German Chancellor Angela Merkel appeared to show signs that she might submit to Erdogan's migrant blackmail..."

    "...If the EU were to approve visa-free travel for Turks -- or whoever has the means to buy a Turkish passport -- millions of Turks would be able to enter the EU legally and potentially "disappear" there. Already at breaking point, the EU would arguably become a very different kind of "European" Union with Turkey, a country of 80 million people, literally invited to enter Europe..."

    "...German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas at the beginning of the Greek border crisis. "No matter who tries, they must reckon with our resistance." Germany, and the EU with it, has been exposed as a house of cards. As the house folded, the world was left in little doubt that Erdogan was running the show..."

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15774/european-union-the-end
     
  19. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Gatestone... the ones who started the lies about them so called no go zones in Europe.
    Totally fake news site.
     
  20. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    One really doesn't know where to start here, it's like talking to a twelve year old.
    Erdogan hasn't seen a single cent of that money, which bothers him considerably. That EU money has been going to international organisations like doctors without border, the international red cross, international red crescent, etc. They spend the money on individual projects, Erdogan doesn't see it.
    Johansson is basically right, an asylum seeker, btw, is something different to a refugee, or to an immigrant. Different categories that are handled differently with different laws being applied. Somebody who applys for asylum can and very often is rejected, but I don't think you're familiar with these details, certainly not from reading duran, gatestone, etc. Greece can ignore Johansson if they want to and that's pretty much what they've been doing.

    Visa free travel for Turkish citizens means 80 mill. of them would flood into the EU and "disappear"? What idiotic nonsense is that? Only if Turkey should ever become a full member of the EU, which I don't think will ever happen, Turks would be allowed to travel freely within EU countries, but even then they wouldn't "disappear". A Frenchman moving to Austria to work and live there would disappear?

    Concerning politics in the near East, Turkey has always been an important player being part of the show. Its geostrategical position is extremely helpful and every Turkish government certainly knows this and they also know how to use it.
    Gatestone is con EU, con Europe, con everything that's not conservative and American, John Bolton is involved in this opinon machinery, no wonder they create alternative narratives that have very little to do with the facts.

    Clearly Erdogan is trying to blackmail Europe, but so far the rather new Greek government seems to be quite in control of things on their eastern border.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  21. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You nit pick an awful lot. I usually say Germany when referring to the EU, since it is the dominant nation, and some of the sites also do. It doesn't mean it's an agenda, it means they have their own individual opinions - which is normal and healthy, otherwise I wouldn't be reading them.

    As for the sources you consider reliable, they all mimic one another ad nauseum because they are owned by the same 6 corporations. All of them give the same spin, and all of them leave out the same things. I quit reading them when their lies made me sick to my stomach.

    Now if you believe that journalists all think the same and all come to the same conclusions, and that the editors have not reduced them to stenographers to please their owners, then bully for you, but don't expect others to.

    The following sites are he ones that I have found to be informative and trustworthy. This doesn't mean I agree with everything they say, or that they do not spin. Of course they do, that's normal and expected and it's taken into account - but at least it is their own opinion and not a concerted effort to brainwash others for their own interests:

    Consortiumnews - American
    Moon of Alabama - British
    Strategic Culture Foundation - American
    RT - Russian
    Sputnik - Russian
    Duran - British
    Greek pronews - Greek
    Fort Russ - Serbian
    Voltairenet - French
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  22. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    I don't nit pick, it's called trying to be accurate. You clearly don't care for that, that's why you post so much false info.
    You are most certainly not familiar with fr.de or welt.de, and simply use this absurd conservative American narrative of 'all mainstream media write and publish the same material - all fake', which is probably true for the American media landscape. Using that as an knockout argument for all the media around the world is painfully superficial. Germany is not the EU, even if it's the most dominant country. Utterly absurd.
    You can use whatever media sources you want, the duran or gatestone are opinion websites that massively distort facts and create alternative and highly incorrect narratives with a very onesided political agenda, same for RT or sputniknews. If you find them trustworthy, omg.
    Strange that many of them are based on right wing bias, are pro Russian, and seem to have a strong tendency towards conspiracy theories and use questionable sources or often no sources at all. Yeah, trustworthy. One needs a certain agenda to find these trustworthy.
    Don't expect normal people to take that seriously, but I'm not interested in debating this. If you make false claims and post lies, someone will debunk them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  23. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And you're telling me to believe the same MSM that made up fairytales about Russia bombing 6 non existent hospitals in Syria so they could demonize Russia, while at the same time distract from the Pentagon's criminal bombing of a hospital in Afghanistan?

    Oh that's right, I forgot you are a stickler for accuracy, so it was 5 non existent hospitals and one existent one that remains fully intact.
    Strange how so many foreign news sites gave the same spin? One has to wonder who exactly owns them?

    This is an interesting video, and quite educational - but it goes beyond that. The deception and lies, should make every moral person sick to their stomachs.



     
  24. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ok ......

    No surprise the CIA was involved.


    Turkey? We are talking about Cyprus. Did the U.S. ever enter war with Vietnam? Irak? Afghanistan? Grenada? There was never a declaration of war so is that a scape-goat excuse to deny an American "war"? But mostly what about Cuba? Cuban-born nationals were set up, trained, supported, armed, and financed by the U.S. and sent to Cuba to overthrow Fidel Castro. So ....? Did the U.S. ever enter war with Cuba? And here we have a similar situation in Cyprus so don't make me laugh. Greece was involved with the attempted conquer of the whole of Cyprus and they would have succeeded if Turkey did not come to the aid of the Cypriot people .... particularly the TC population. Turkey could have feasibly taken over the whole island but it didn't. There are two flags flying over Cyprus today. One in the north and the other in the south. One is
    a reality the other is pure & utter fantasy and both Greece and the American CIA are to blame for it >>>

    CYPRUS.jpg

     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  25. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    You didn't understand what I was saying, I wrote you can use whatever media sources you want. I'm not interested in your preconceived narrations. Your simplifying 'mainstream media' vs. 'alternative media' is merely self protection, you only use sources that confirm your beliefs. Claiming that the websites you posted, which have a clear pro Russia agenda, often don't reveal their sources, have a tendency towards conspiracy theories and a right wing bias, provide accurate infiormation is ridiculous. But you can use whatever media sources you want, just don't excpect others to follow. Regarding that video - an American administration telling lies, sadly nothing new. Yes, accuracy is important, something you haven't used in your claims regarding the corona crisis.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020

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