Military Response on 9/11 - where is the stand down?

Discussion in '9/11' started by cjnewson88, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Inspired by Bob, I thought I would lay out a quick time line for the events of that morning. I would appreciate Bob, or any other truther, to point out to me exactly where in this time line a stand down occurred, and what effect did it have?

    8:24 - AAL11 hijackers transmit a message to the passengers over the ATC frequency my mistake, stating "we have some planes". Boston ARTCC immediately treat AAL11 as a hijack, relaying information to the ATCSCC in Herdon, VA, and the FAA in Washington.

    8:30 - Boston TMU begins calling for military assistance. After several failed calls they get through to Otis ANGB at Cape Cod at 8:34 and ask for assistance. They are informed they will NEADS authorisation, but pilots are called up, told to suit up and expect a call from NEADS any minute.


    8:37 - Boston calls NEADS direct, and informs them of the hijackings of AAL11. NEADS is just gearing up for a drill as part of annual Vigilant Guardian exercises, which means most of the ops room is already filled with staff at their stations. The caller confirms with Boston that the event is real world immediately upon receipt, and the staff at NEADS transitions into the real world scenario within a matter of seconds.


    8:39 - NEADS calls Otis and places two F-15's, PANTA 45/46, at battlestations, as they begin searching for AAL11 approaching Manhattan.


    8:46 - NEADS calls in an active scramble order to PANTA 45/46 as the pilots are on their way to their F-15's. A few seconds later AAL11 impacts the North Tower.


    8:52 - PANTA 45/46 get wheels up off the runway and begin burning supersonic towards Manhattan. NEADS as well as the F-15 pilots have no idea the aircraft they are chasing has crashed.


    Around the same time, New York ARTCC realise they have lost contact with United 175. They also begin getting word that AAL11 has crashed into the WTC. They watch the radar target for UAL175 make a turn and begin heading towards Manhattan, and the controllers begin going through the process of informing the military.


    9:03 - PANTA 45/46 begin to hold off Long Island as they are informed a couple of minutes earlier the aircraft they are chasing has crashed. UAL175 crashes into the South Tower just as NEADS is being informed of its possible hijacking.


    9:10 - As a precaution, NEADS orders 3 F-16's at Langley to Battlestations.


    9:20 - FAA asks American Airlines to confirm whether it was AAL11 which crashed into the WTC. American Airlines are unable to confirm it had crashed. Some at FAA take this to mean that AAL11 is still airborne. They conclude it must be continuing south towards Washington DC. Colin Scoggins from Boston calls NEADS and passes the message. NEADS orders the scramble of the Langley F-16s and directs them to track towards Baltimore-Washington Airport.


    ~9:22 - Indianapolis ARTCC begin getting word of the events in New York. 20 minutes earlier they had lost all contact with American 77. They assumed it had crashed. They now begin to doubt that initial assumption and pass to the FAA that AAL77 may be hijacked.

    9:30 - NEADS is informed that AAL77 is "lost" and is unable to be located. Around the same time Dulles Control starts passing information to Reagan National Airport and the Secrete Service of a fast moving primary target on its radar screens tracking towards the restricted area surrounding the Capital Building and White House.

    9:30 - 3 F-16's are airborne from Langley, their callsigns are QUIT 25/26/27

    9:34 - NEADS is informed by Colin Scoggins that there is a primary radar target 6 miles south of the White House. Immediately NEADS spots the same target on their radar, and call up the QUIT fighters to burn direct DC.

    9:37 - AAL77 crashes into the Pentagon.

    Meanwhile Cleveland ARTCC is dealing with the hijack of UAL93, and watch it turn towards DC. The FAA is made aware of this hijacking, but the military is not.

    10:04 - UAL93 crashes.

    10:08 - NEADS is informed that UAL93 has reported a bomb on board and begin trying to track it down.

    Controllers at Cleveland realise they cannot spot UAL93. They knew it was heading towards DC, so they place a flight plan into the air traffic control system for UAL93 heading from Hagerstown to Reagan National Airport. FAA, Secrete Service, and controllers at DC and Baltimore begin following this projected flight as it progresses at its last known ground speed towards DC.

    Secrete Service scramble two F-16's airborne out of Andrews to burn towards the North West and fine/intercept UAL93. As the projection gets closer, the secrete service in the PEOC with the vice president are informed by the FAA of the distance and location. This is where Norman Mineta's testimony comes from.

    About 10:30 - the target for UAL93 arrives at DC. No aircraft is accompanied with it. FAA and Secrete Service are informed of an aircraft crash near Shanksville PA.


    That is a pretty brief over view of the military response that morning. All information comes from dozens of recordings available to anyone who wants to listen to them. The long and short of it, is that the military just didn't have the time or information to enact a effective defense, and even if they had, the chances they would have shot down a commercial aircraft filled with civilians is almost null. For hijackings prior to 9/11 the military would intercept and follow at a distance, and wait for the aircraft to land and the hijackers to make demands. Never before has a hijacked airliner be rammed into a building, and I very much doubt that without hindsight any of the pilots on 9/11 would have shot down a hijacked aircraft.


    So, Bob, or other truthers here, where exactly in this time line did a stand down occur? From who? and what effect did it have?
     
  2. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Trophy Points:
    113
    To this truther, the question of "stand down" is more semantics than anything else. Some make a case that a stand down was in effect. I'm completely neutral on that point, but it does seem to be the case.

    What cannot be denied though, is the Vigilant Guardian training exercises. There were several going on in those weeks, and different names involved. FEMA was having a training exercise in NYC named Operation Tripod. In England, some sort of training exercise was in play in that July attack on their public transport facilities.

    When the NEADS controller asked the FAA controller if his (FAA) call was "real world or exercise", it demonstrated the ambiguous mindset and the uncertainty involved. Some level of confusion, just enough to get the ball rolling.

    The rest is history.
     
  3. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    1,118
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The stand down is not a timeline, it's a 9/11 fact. When the WH knew the exact date and exact targets and did NOTHING to prevent or stop the 9/11 attacks (either before or during), that's called a stand down. But they didn't even have to know the exact date and exact targets to act on 9/11. They did NOTHING. You believe your "timeline" shows they did something, that's ok with me, I'm not that gullible. A $multi-trillion intelligence/military system second to none on the planet did NOTHING on 9/11. Your "timeline" for such a military/defense apparatus that allegedly shows they did "something" is a sad joke. 3 out of 4 major targets were hit with perfection, allegedly by 19 Arabs armed with box cutters because "no one could have imagined...". That's a fairytale made for children and peddled by criminals who believe Americans are all gullible children (many are, I'll give them that, but certainly not all).

    http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/11/911-family-member-patty-casazza.html
     
  4. l4zarus

    l4zarus Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    18
    No. If you really believe in finding the "truth", stick to a reliable methodology. That means words mean what they mean, they don't shift meaning for your convenience.

    Stand down:
    noun
    1.Military. a temporary cessation of offensive actions; cease-fire; truce:
    a stand-down for the Christmas holidays.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/stand-down

    a relaxation of status of a military unit or force from an alert or operational posture
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stand–down

    stand-down or stand·down (stănd′doun′)
    n.A relaxation from a state of readiness or alert.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stand-down


    If these do describe what your "theory" is trying to describe vis-a-vis stand downs, your theory is wrong.

    Furthermore, you suggestion that an established defined term can shift according to personal opinion shows you are not interested in engaging people with critical thinking skills. You are certainly not interested in any scientific standard of proof.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually, no:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=482727&p=1066790241#post1066790241
     
  5. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    The exercise planned for that day actually bettered the military response, as I stated in my time line all the NEADS staff were at their stations or on their way to their stations when the call came in. You are correct in your post, the NEADS staff confirmed with Joe Cooper from Boston that this was real world. This transition from military exercise to real world took a matter of seconds. After a few seconds no one in that room felt they were dealing with an exercise.

    The FEMA exercise was planned for September 12th iirc.

    The 7/7 exercise where they were simulating bombs going off in several subway stations was a closed door exercise between a half dozen people. They were literally sitting there drinking coffee chatting over a table about what would happen if bombs went off in a dozen or more subway stations at once... It's akin to me snapping one off in the morning wondering what would happen if a plane got shot down by a ground-to-air missile and then seeing MH17 on the news a couple of minutes later (true story btw)
     
  6. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Bob your baseless claims are putting you on the verge of being marked as a known liar in my book. Stop making stuff up.
     
  7. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    1,118
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Please do if that's what you're here for. I wouldn't want to interfere with your hobby or your book.

    Sorry i didn't create the Patty Casazza video or put words in her mouth, you have the wrong person.
     
  8. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It bettered the military response? You're kidding, right?

    How does confusion better the military response? If it was bettered on that day, how and why on earth was it so quick and precise with the Payne Stewart incident?

    If it bettered it, why were the Otis aircraft late to the party?
     
  9. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    There was no confusion, you can find and listen to all the NEADS tapes like I have, and you will hear not a single point of confusion. It was bettered because everyone was already at their position or on their way, so NEADS didn't have to spend several minutes calling everyone up getting them into the room before they could start doing their job.

    The military were reacting as fast as they could with the information they were being given. They had 11 minutes warning for the first aircraft, 0 minutes for the seconds, 3 minutes for the third, and 0 minutes for the fourth. So the only one they could have intercepted was the first one, within 11 minutes.

    Otis were not late to the party, they moved as quick as they could breaking protocol and burning supersonic towards Manhattan. I think you underestimate how things happen in the real world. Otis gets a call up, two pilots respond by making their way to their room, suiting up, getting everything they need as well as a quick brief, then they have to travel on the airport all the way over to their jets, go through the start up, run up, checks, radio clearances, taxi, and then finally they get airborne. This took Otis only 13 minutes. That's pretty fast.

    How was the Payne Stewart intercept quick? From the time of realising they lost contact, to the time the military intercepting, took over an hour... and that was using jets which were already airborne on a training mission. Where is the quickness in that?
     
  10. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The confusion was apparent from the very start, as I've already mentioned. NEADS says to FAA "Is this real life, or exercise"? The FAA screens were alive with injects, perhaps the military screens too. Injects = confusion and trickery.

    As for the Payne Stewart flight, my trusty Jeppesen Flight Direct shows 200 nm between Gainesville FL and Eufala AL. The official report says the Learjet went lost commo about 40 northwest of Gainesville, and was "officially" intercepted over Eufala. Subtract the 40 miles from GNV and you have 160 nm.

    If you're good with math, you will note that an airplane flying 250 knots will cover 160 miles in about 43 minutes, so the one hour claim by 911 apologists cannot possibly be accurate, and the explanation for that error is simple--not accounting for the different time zones, Eastern (where the flight began) and Central, along the Georgia Alabama line.

    And if one considers that NORAD actually responded to the errant aircraft in less than 20 minutes, and had "eyes on" the errant aircraft while it was still well within Florida airspace.

    Yet on the day Vigilant Guardian was up and running, the USAF and NORAD could not find their collective ass with both hands. That was the intention of the planners.
     
  11. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Yeah, NEADS asks about 8 seconds into the initial call "is this real world or exercise", to which Joe responds it was real world, and the military then moved into action. There was no confusion. There may have been some injects on NEADS screens for a short time later in the morning at about 9:20 but the NEADS staff switch the "sim switches" off and you can clearly hear them saying so. There was no confusion, the sim went live, they realised it went live, and turned it off within a couple of seconds. Never at any stage was there any confusion about real world hijackings or not. Obviously you haven't bothered listening to the recordings.

    And what do you mean injects on the FAA? Military exercises don't inject targets onto FAA screens lol where did you pull that one from? Not only would there be entirely no point, but it would be totally dangerous. Maybe you should go talk to an air traffic controller?

    You realise the NTSB investigation report for this crash and even the ATC audio is available online, right?

    "At 1327:18Z (0927:18 EDT), the pilot acknowledged the clearance by stating, "three nine zero bravo alpha." This was the last known radio transmission from the airplane, and occurred while the aircraft was passing through 23,000 feet (7,000 m). The next attempt to contact the aircraft occurred six minutes, 20 seconds later (14 minutes after departure), with the aircraft at 36,500 feet (11,100 m), and the controller's message went unacknowledged. The controller attempted to contact N47BA five more times in the next 4½ minutes, again with no answer."

    "About 1454Z (now 0954 CDT due to the flight's crossing into the Central Time zone), a U.S. Air Force F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin AFB in western Florida, who happened to be in the air nearby, was directed by controllers to intercept N47BA."

    1340Z to 1454Z is well over an hour.

    Yet you haven't shown how Vigilant Guardian did anything to prevent the interception of aircraft? You've pulled total fabrications out about fake injects out and confusion, and yet what we hear on the recordings is no confusion at all.

    By the way, it's the Air National Guard who deal with intercepting aircraft, not the USAF.
     
  12. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, I know that all sorts of government propaganda, including NTSB nonsense including TWA800, are available online. Yes, even in print if one wants to. But online and in print does not make propaganda true. It is still propaganda.

    And yes, I know what mindset innocent participants can enter when playing in a war game. Hey, this is a game!

    Injects are commonly used in training scenarios, both in the FAA and in the military. I wasn't born yesterday.
     
  13. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    So, you're wrong but you're blowing it off as "propaganda"? For what reason would 'they' create propaganda in 1999 for Payne Stewarts Learjet? Or maybe you can just admit you were wrong and be a man?

    Funny, in the entirety of the NEADS tapes not a single person thinks they are taking part in a game. When did you last listen to them?

    When injects are used for the military it would be pretty bloody obvious what are injects, and what are real aircraft. They would be entirely different symbols and colour on their scopes. There is no way a military person would EVER think an inject during a training exercise is actually a real aircraft.

    And no, you are wrong, the FAA does not input injects onto their monitors. They have nothing to do with military exercises and to input fake injects onto live ATC screens would be outright dangerous and distracting for ATC who are already hard at work keeping safe hundreds of real aircraft. You are making stuff up. I suggest you retract.
     
  14. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have a friend who retired from FAA ATC about 2 years ago. He and I have discussed this. He tells me that even 10 years ago the FAA uses false targets/injects/whatever on earth you want to call them, for training purposes. So please spare me your untrue statements. In his book Crossing The Rubicon, Michael Ruppert provides numerous footnotes and quotes regarding the use of injects on 911. You can deny all you wish, but it happened.

    The Stewart incident was straight-up, uninfluenced by politics, UNTIL the 911 government apologists realized that events on that day showed how quickly NORAD did react when no training exercise was in play. Apparently they then began to spin the Stewart incident into a one hour plus reaction time, which it was not.
     
  15. 911Defender

    911Defender New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This may clarify a few things......

    Cheney Admits that He Lied about 9/11
    Posted on March 8, 2013 by WashingtonsBlog

    What Else Did He Lie About?
    The New York Times’ Maureen Dowd writes today:
    In a documentary soon to appear on Showtime, “The World According to Dick Cheney,” [Cheney said] “I got on the telephone with the president, who was in Florida, and told him not to be at one location where we could both be taken out.” Mr. Cheney kept W. flying aimlessly in the air on 9/11 while he and Lynn left on a helicopter for a secure undisclosed location, leaving Washington in a bleak, scared silence, with no one reassuring the nation in those first terrifying hours.
    “I gave the instructions that we’d authorize our pilots to take it out,” he says, referring to the jet headed to Washington that crashed in a Pennsylvania field. He adds: “After I’d given the order, it was pretty quiet. Everybody had heard it, and it was obviously a significant moment.”
    ***
    When they testified together before the 9/11 Commission, W. and Mr. Cheney kept up a pretense that in a previous call, the president had authorized the vice president to give a shoot-down order if needed. But the commission found “no documentary evidence for this call.”
    In other words, Cheney pretended that Bush had authorized a shoot-down order, but Cheney now admits that he never did. In fact, Cheney acted as if he was the president on 9/11. *
    Cheney lied about numerous other facts related to 9/11 as well. For example, Cheney:
    Falsely linked Iraq with 9/11 (indeed, the entire torture program was aimed at establishing such a false linkage; and Cheney is the guy who pushed for torture, pressured the Justice Department lawyers to write memos saying torture was legal, and made the pitch to Congress justifying torture. The former director of the CIA said Cheney oversaw American torture policies)
    Falsely claimed that spying on Americans, torture, the Patriot Act, the Afghanistan war, the Iraq war and the “war on terror” were all necessitated by 9/11 … when all of them started or were planned before 9/11
    Falsely stated that an attack such as 9/11 was unforeseeable, when Al Qaeda flying planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon was something which American military and intelligence services – and our allies – knew could happen
    Falsely pretended that he was out of the loop during the 9/11 attacks
    Falsely blamed others for 9/11, when Cheney was in charge of all of America’s counter-terrorism exercises, activities and responses on 9/11. See this Department of State announcement and this CNN article …
    … And when Cheney was apparently responsible for letting the Pentagon get hit by an airplane (confirmed here and here)
    And was instrumental in squashing a real investigation into 9/11
    * Indeed, Cheney initiated Continuity of Government plans on 9/11 which essentially nullified America’s constitutional form of government.
     
  16. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    48
    that has got to be the most intellectually dishonest post I have ever seen from you ...
     
  17. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    1,118
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Someone who posts juvenile drivel such as this:

    should not be criticizing anyone else about intellectual dishonesty.
     
  18. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    48
    perhaps you should re-read ... Payne Stewart just is now part of 9/11? ... that's a huge truther caught in a major dodge and just making (*)(*)(*)(*) up ... you don't actually agree with that post do you? ...

    clown shoe material ...
     
  19. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    1,118
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I read it just fine. Stop posting juvenile drivel and maybe then your posts can be taken seriously.

    In the 9/11 scheme of things, the Payne Stewart incident is virtually insignificant other than to provide an example. No one needs that example to know there was a stand down on 9/11, the history/facts speaks for itself.
     
  20. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Liar.

    Liar.

    You're just making stuff up. And it's obvious.
     
  21. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ah, you're one of those, eh CJNewson88? Thanks, I'll pass.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Considering the source, I say thank you for the compliment.
     
  22. cjnewson88

    cjnewson88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Yes I call people out on their lies, such as lies when they say they know atc controllers who talk about fake injects coming on their screens for the purpose of military exercises when they're in the middle of coordinating hundreds of lives in the air.

    I call people on on their lies, such as lies when they say 2 years after an accident they 'changed the story' of Payne Stewarts Learjet.

    You are a liar, simple as that.
     
  23. Cornergas

    Cornergas Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2017
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    148
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    '

    Bush was a liability to the government's plans on 9/11, that is why Cheney sent him to Florida and Omaha and kept him out of the way....Bush did not have the smarts, but Cheney is a pathological liar, and had no problem dealing with allowing the 9/11 thing to happen and covering it up...Bush had to be kept away for awhile to learn the coverup story...
     
  24. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,097
    Likes Received:
    2,210
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Imaginative but no evidence
     

Share This Page