Minimum Wage

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by God & Country, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK. Now, you want to base your argument on some undefined quality you accuse ME of having. Ad hom lite!

    I really don't believe that's going to lead to a solution - do you?
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, so you are unaware that we do have price supports for some agricultural products and various other price protections when we perceive the product to be necessary for some reason. Trump even offered money to Courier to continue a US payroll. Our tax law is rife with exceptions we make.

    And, I'd point out that corporations do have non-compete clauses that employees often have to sign. At one point, if I went to work at another company I would not be allowed to have the same kind of job or use the patents or even general practices that I developed.

    The real issue with minimum wage is that we have people working full time jobs who are paid too little to live without government support.

    A sidelight of that is that we then turn around and spit on those who require that support. One doesn't have to read these message boards much to find people who regularly express their hatred for people who are working minimum wage jobs.

    And, these people end up on the street, or are faced with options for staying alive where we as a society don't like it.
     
  3. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I've been alive for 74 years. In my experience anytime government gets involved in trying to run something in the private sector things get worse. Minimum wage is a good example. I reject your source. In truth I tend to ignore everything economists say. There are as many economic opinions as there are economists. Aside from a few obvious things such as the law of supply and demand they don't agree on anything. It is nothing more than social analysis and people are very hard to analyze.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  4. MAGA

    MAGA Well-Known Member

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    I came up with a solution. Everyone that thinks burger flippers are entitled to $15.00/hr to do a job only worth $9.00/hr pony up the difference for one worker.

    Liberals' solution is always to mandate someone else lose money.

    After you mandate other people to pay more than a job is worth, you have to figure how to pay for the increases necessary for food stamps, Social Security, and Disability funds to pay for the artificial inflation caused by feel-good policies that destroy free market forces.

    Then you have to pay for increases in unemployment as companies automate and go out of business.

    Other than that.. What's the downside?
     
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  5. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    So you ignore the scholarly evidence because it doesn't agree with your bias? No point in talking to you really. I'd get more debate from a pint of milk on the turn.
     
  6. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    You miss the point; anything less than fifteen an hour is being subsidized through social services, anyway. Why Only be Generous to the rich.
     
  7. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The question is one of responsibility for the wage earners welfare.
    The business is totally responsible for it's welfare, and there is no unemployment or salvation if it fails to keep itself on track. That includes many things- picking the right market, the right times, managing all expenses, predicting the future even.

    Why would you think that they business is responsible for those same things for employees? The business does not control the way they spend their money or take care fo their family, and has no business doing so anyway. Those responsibilties DO fall one the employee. IF he is not making enough money, he has options to (a) change jobs, assuming someone wants to pay hm more. (b) increase his value- in the existing job by improving performance or skills. In other jobs by having those skills and making himself more valuable.

    To ask that his value be arbitarily increased because he would like to live at a better level than he is- is socialism. I see people in tight financial conditions where if you count the tattoos, booze, cigarettes and things they buy that depreciate but can't afford are considered, you realize that if they had self discipline, they would not be in financial difficulties. That raises the next question- how irresponsible can a person be with their affairs and still deserve free money?

    Have you ever bought something from a store, and offered to pay them more than the asking price because you thought they needed more money? In all the years I've run businesses (51) that has never happened.

    Now all this excludes people who are in need through no fault of their own- I'm not talking about them.
     
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  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'm well aware that there are taxes and other costs that are scaled to wages.

    We're seeing automation wipe out minimum wage jobs all around the world, regardless of wages. That's a separate conversation - one that includes education.

    Remember that minimum wage reduces the need for government support to employees whose wages would otherwise be below (or farther below) the cost of living. So, instead of paying the government and then having the government pay these individuals, they just earn the money directly.

    Being able to pay one's own way IS a good thing.
     
  9. MAGA

    MAGA Well-Known Member

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    If that were true then there is no problem, as we're already being generous to the working poor.
     
  10. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    This is why, nobody takes the right wing seriously about economics.
     
  11. MAGA

    MAGA Well-Known Member

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    You mean the right wing that's brought the economy back from anemia to record breaking employment and a booming economy? Is that the right wing you mean?
     
  12. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You know- i have no disrespect for people in a minimum wage job, unless they think it should be a life career instead of a starter job. Everyone starts with no experience, and basic experience is what greater skills and understanding are built on. Most McDonalds managers and many of their franchisees started at such jobs; the future depends mostly on how they perform. If you are working for someone that won't do right by you- start job shopping. I have a son in law that started as a welders helper with an HS degree at 18. Now he's 50, just took a new job as a plant GM, with a wage package that tops 250K.

    "Paid too little to live" depends on how you insist on living. At 38, recently divorced, recently out of bankruptcy, diagnosed with a highly deadly cancer without insurance, I spent a winter living in a storage space because I couldn't afford an apartment and refused to live off family and friends, and I was paying off my medical bills. I adjusted my life style to what I could afford at the time and allow myself to start rebuilding. I didn't apply for any kind of assistance- I've never taken so much as an unemployment check from government, and nothing from parents either. Now I'm 76, on my 7th company (6 successful), two of them still in business, and three of the 6 in my family are millionaires thanks to those businesses. Granted being worth more than a mil and debt free isn't as impressive as it once was, but I'm satisfied with what I've accomplished. Everyone has a valuable skill or talent. The trick is finding what you have, and making the most of it. Nobody can do it for you. You have to look to yourself, inside, to find it. Many will never do that, and I am sorry that is true; but it is up to them to change it.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Pretty true. There are some exceptions, such as bankruptcy protection, loan renegotiation, a president who wants to give you money to stay in business, etc.

    The major point here is that corporations are not people. If they were, there would be some moral responsibility for keeping them alive. But, they aren't.
    Again, you are comparing and contrasting humans with pieces of paper. And, you missed that companies can be even more irresponsible than humans can, as they are playing with people's lives.

    Let's not forget that the whole reason for the concept of a corporation is one of protecting ownership from accountability.

    So, how does a human apply for protection against being accountable for their actions?
    Minimum wage is not being used as a way of giving someone a raise. It's a way of ensuring that those who work full time can pay their own way.

    Nobody gets an increase out of this other than those currently working below the minimum wage. This law isn't intended for them in particular - it's intended for all those who choose work over couch.
    Well, yes I have - regularly. But, not for products as you might find at the corner grocery - or Best Buy or Amazon.

    Thanks for noticing that there are those who are unable.
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I do agree that people have to do the work to be successful. But, denying that luck plays a role is no sale with me. We note that entrepreneurs take risks. We don't say entrepreneurs take sure bets.
     
  15. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The market will raise the average wage, go out and earn it and not wait for government to order you a raise.
     
  16. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Unemployment insurance made sense to ease the hardship of transitional unemployment. The best way to get unskilled work done is to eliminate the minimum wage for unskilled labor. Those who have no work history are worth very little to potential employers. The minimum wage has idled most of the potential unskilled labor force.
     
  17. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    When an individual gives away his property it is generous good act. When he steals property it is a crime.
    When government takes away the property of the people it governs it the same act as felony theft, but authorized by law.
    We accept taxes because we vote for the representatives that impose them.
    The checks on governments power to tax should be reinforced.
     
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  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We have two or three DECADES of proof that it's nonsense that what is available to wage earners isn't going to just magically rise.

    During that time, wages on the lower end of the scale have been stagnant - even to the degree that buying power has decreased.

    Today more than for many decades, workers are on their own, attempting to bargain with corporations that are working to maximize corporate profits by not having to hire human beings, let alone pay them a living wage.
     
  19. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lets see if you actually understand this.

    Luck is a random thing- and only that. The odds vary with the number of factors, but event the lottery people know exactly what the odds are and how much profit over the payout will occur in the long run. It is why casinos make money; in the long run luck is transient and actual odds control the end result.

    One thing that is always true- luck is never consistent. You don't flip a coin a thousand times and have any significant variation in results from the predictable odds.

    Business and investing both require a great many decisions, based on conditions with a great many variable factors. In order to be successful, especially highly successful- you have to make the right decisions consistently everyday, year after year. That IS NOT luck, that is skill, combined with accurate knowledge and understanding of the principles involved and the ability to properly weigh the risks, to properly choose the timing of decisions and actions- and literally to be able to predict the future well enough to be right most of the time.

    Luck plays a role in windfall situations, but it does not have much of a role in survival or failure. Those who claim the winners were just lucky are looking for a way to avoid accepting responsibility for their own failures. The harder and smarter you work, the "luckier" you get. You may have noticed that the number of people who make it to the top in many fields is not large at all. That is because the percentage of people who really achieve excellence is very small, while the number that settle for mediocrity is very large. None of them are going to say it is a choice, but that is exactly what it is; a choice not to go for something more. You have to have a drive for that- my father used to call it having
    a fire in the belly".

    Of course entrepreneurs take risks- usually calculated risks, not random gambles. Still, the majority of start-up businesses fail, 50% in five years. My first one did, I simply hadn't developed management skills well enough. Going into business is an intense education, however, and smart people do not make the same mistake twice. The next six all were winners.

    I spent a few years doing a lot of instructional seminars, trying to teach people how to take control of their lives and succeed. The process of that is easy- I literally live my life using four basic rules I could write on a business card. I found teaching them was not enough. Unless people take them to heart and live by them, throw out the trash they already think they know- it can't work. The thinking they have already been programmed with is always in the way, and few people can reprogram themselves. I'm one of those fortunate enough to have done so. I would wish it for everyone, but it's not a gift I can successfully give. I accept that I do not have the power to give them what they need the most, and it damn sure isn't money.
     
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  20. YourBrainIsGod

    YourBrainIsGod Well-Known Member

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    This is the market adjusting.
     
  21. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    In economics, a market adjustment is when something happens that changes how people do business. If there's a plague that kills off 2/3 of Europe, the market adjusts by making the remaining labor pool more valuable. If there's some law that says that from now on, nobody can work for less than 15 bucks an hour, the market will adjust by investors favoring businesses that rely upon semi-skilled labor, rather than unskilled labor.

    Sometimes this market adjustment is good, for example, if Venezuela's government were to suffer a coup, and some reliable capitalists took over the place, investors would start eyeing the place as a possible way to put their money to some good use. There's lots of oil, the population is fairly well educated, and there certainly is a lot of pent up demand for basics like.... food. Sometimes this is bad, like when the communists take over and start liberating the factories that people have built in the belief that they could make a few duckets selling wonder bread. Suddenly nobody wants to invest in a toilet that flushes whenever you throw some money into it.
     
  22. YourBrainIsGod

    YourBrainIsGod Well-Known Member

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    I don’t fault people for wanting to get paid for their work.
     
  23. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Would you fault them for wanting to keep what they get paid?
     
  24. YourBrainIsGod

    YourBrainIsGod Well-Known Member

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    Nope.
     
  25. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Great! That does away with the minimum wage argument. All those wages are paid for by people who work for their money, and the more they can keep rather than having it bled off by paying the newb down in the mail room 15 an hour, the better.
     

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