Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by US Conservative, Dec 2, 2021.
SAVAK wasn't so bad by the standards of the time and place.
The US had and has lots of valuable relationships in countries where practices are different from our own. The Shah's regime in Iran was quite progressive, and much more in tune with our modern world than is the current clerical regime. The mullahs, btw, were quite accepting of the Shah until they stopped getting paid to be quiet.
Says the fellow who thinks dragging children over barbed wire "till flesh hung from bones" in front of parents was not so bad because it was "our bad guys" doing it ..
Hope we won't be adopting your "standards" .. or should we say maintain them .. ?!
You're saying that out of the viewpoint that an Iranian life who wants it's democracy back doesn't matter. What the CIA fully participated with wasn't done in the US in that era.
It wasn't progressive. It was oppressive but secular. And the way it tortured people to death by the 10,000's who wanted to have a democracy was certainly not in tune with the modern world. It simply was a fascist state.
The Shahs regime did not "torture people to death by the 10,000s".
Other nations are not the United States and their citizens are not Americans.
What they want doesn't matter.
They estimate it was between 65,000 and 70,000
It still is that the US fully cooperated in massacring Iranian civilians who wanted democracy by founding and aiding it's secret service.
The original claim was that the US is the biggest state in the world that is sponsorring terrorism. And this is part of it.
The US also aided Saddam Hussein, with gassing the Iranians as well as the Kurds.
In the context of its time and place it was a pretty benign regime.
Even if I were to accept your numbers (which I don't) that's still small potatoes compared to the tens (hundreds?) of millions in the Soviet Union and China.
All of those claims are utterly false.
A source that was opposed to the Shah's regime from the outset. Find a source that supported the Shah and I might consider it valid as "statements against interest".
@notme is not Iranian and while I generally appreciate his contributions and agree with him on many issues relating to the Middle East and US foreign policy, I don't accept his characterizations regarding the Shah's regime nor the fact that he sees everything in a prism that is not all that relevant to the real issues between Iran and the US/Israel. The real relevance of the revolution to what is happening now is simply the fact that the Iranian revolution was, in significant respects, a revolution against US hegemony in the region, and a struggle to achieve genuine independence for Iran. Otherwise, the Shah's regime, while certainly authoritarian and clearly closed in terms of allowing public opinion to influence Iranian policies, wasn't engaged in nearly as much killing, torture, and such that was falsely being reported by the same organizations who still maintain links to the leftist and communist elements that fed them those stories. There were less than 3,000 political prisoners in Iran at the height of the Shah's regime and less than several dozen who had been executed. Its just easier, I suppose, to get people to join a bandwagon by selling them false tales that need to turn everything into a grotesque and misleading caricature of reality. The way it is done about Iran and the current regime now as well, with the most outrageous claims about what is happening in Iran where most of them are simply absurd lies and others are intentionally misleading. But propaganda was never an exclusive preserve of Stalin nor of Goebbels even if the propaganda about Iran usually imitates from those who ultimately learned the craft from those type of figures.
The fanatical oppression and the use of torture and executing people to retain fascist rule, had nothing to do with western values of that time. So you're just wrong.
I sourced it's true. And we're comparing it to western values. And it's just nowhere near western values. So my argument stand that the US is a massive spreader of state terrorism by -among things- creating and supporting the institute (secret service) that oppressed the people of an entire country of millions and millions of citizens. You can't say the same that Iran did that to an other country.
I sourced it's true. And I add, there is nothing wrong with my source.
That's like letting a nazi deny the holocaust and you applauding to that speech and saying to me that he is right and everybody else is not.
The CIA has already admitted it's role in founding the Iranian secret service and discussing how to torture.
It's game over.
Nonsense. The historical record is otherwise.
Iran is not (and was not) a western country, so "western values" would and will always be an imported, acquired taste. And for most of his reign the Shah enjoyed substantial popular support. This included the mullahs, who were happy to go along as long as they got paid.
Come now Dayton .. you know that at least one of those claims is true .. are you pretending you have not been schooled on Reagan's support of the Saddam Regime .. whist gassing the kurds .. and Iran .. ? Ronald was big fan of Saddam .. when bipartisan congress wanted to sanction Saddam for use of Poison Gas .. Rotten Ronne threatened veto ..
Yeah .. then Daddy Bush .. Goblin in Chief now ... increases aid to Saddam ..
And torture .. well .. did you forget your schooling on that or did you need some more ... CIA big fan's of such things .. promoting terror all over the world .. to promote US economic hegemony .. a worthy cause in your books I presume..
The historic record is that the CIA acknowledges that they founded a murdering and torturing secret service in Iran.
And that's not on par with western norms. Not in them days, not in our days.
Your claim that a violent fascist regime was in context of it's time, is just flat out lying since it previously was a rather free democratic nation. That support the Shah got is only from the people who got bribed and the people who were held at gun point. And it was the US who supported his violence as well as the corruption. At the bottom line, you jumped on a ship where a poster claimed that Iran is the biggest sponsor of terrorism, while Iran never did such a thing. The US did this in plenty of nations around the world.... hence it's the biggest sponsor of terrorism.
The CIA did what was necessary to win the Cold War. We can still live by our western values because of what they did.
Your view is uniquely your own.
Prove it. Post a link to an unbiased source.
What some of the geniuses here in this thread probably don't know is that one of the long time heads of SAVAK (the shah of Irans secret service) met for dinner weekly with the Ayatollah Khomeini (before his exile) and the Ayatollah apparently considered him a friend.
Separate names with a comma.