My 2007 anti-abortion e-mail to my M. P. Peter MacKay and my apology for my ignorance

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by DennisTate, Apr 16, 2015.

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Should mothers be given a choice in a democratic nation?

  1. Yes, Canada is a democracy not a theocracy.

    5 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. No, abortion is making our Creator angry with us.

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. Yes, mothers face a situation like Masada.

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  4. No, we are also a "Christian" nation.

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Back in 2007, when I wrote the following e-mail to my M. P., I just did not understand how powerful a case can be presented for the pro-choice position.

    MP Peter Mackay. Did you become pro-Choice based on misleading statistics?




    MP Peter Mackay
    http://www.petermackay.ca/
    September 8, 2007


    Dear Mr. Minister Mackay:

    When I heard you speak at the 2006 federal debate held at Pictou Campus of NSCC I was certainly impressed. I was in basic agreement with perhaps seventy percent of the statements that you made.

    Honorable Minister, one important position on which I vehemently disagree
    with you Sir is that you stated that you were pro-Choice on the issue of abortion.

    I plan to run against you as an independent candidate in the upcoming federal election. Winning would of course be the best possible outcome but a close second would be to see you Mr. Mackay reconsider all the new information available and adopt a strong pro-Life stance.

    I suspect that you may have decided to be pro-Choice based on thoroughly misleading but impressive statistics that abortion advocates casually spout.

    The example of what has happened in Poland between the years 1990 to 1994 is of and by itself sufficient reason to abandon your pro-Choice stance!

    http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp

    At this site if you will click on link 14 - "Fetal Pain" you will certain see another good reason to become an anti-abortion candidate. Powerful evidence suggests that unborn babies experience pain AT ONLY EIGHT WEEKS!

    Thank you for your consideration of this matter and I look forward to the honor of discussing this question further with you at the debate.

    Kind regards.

    Dennis Tate

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Tate4CentralNova/conversations/topics/4
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Back in 2007 I did not understand how expectant mothers are in a sense facing a situation that can be compared with the Jews at Masada who had revolted against the Roman Empire.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

    The Canadian and American economic system is far more comparable to that of Rome than we might wish to imagine.

    I am in no position to look down on an expectant mother if she feels that if she gives birth to her baby she will probably be unable to finish her education and thus would be condemned to a life where she might well end up stuck in a minimum wage job.
     
  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To a degree, deciding to have an abortion is a little bit like a part of the mother committing suicide. What I finally now understand is that under certain circumstances suicide is a possible choice that all of us can empathize with.

    The 960 Jews at Masada would probably have been crucified if they were men and probably made into slaves if they were women or children, so their act of mass suicide is a decision that we Canadians can to at least some degree understand as a logical choice under such an extreme set of circumstances.
     
  4. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Until a nervous system develops and connects to a minimally.developed brain..it is physically impossible to experience pain.
     
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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then what about the research that indicates that plants seem to have something resembling an emotional response and may also, to some extent, feel pain?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants

     
  6. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you will actually read the opening post you will notice that I was rabidly pro-life in 2007 and back in those good ol' days...... yes..... I felt that a legal prohibition on abortion ..... at least in many cases........ had more benefits than liabilities but........ as of this moment I am beginning to gain a better grasp of the full pro-choice position.

    I admit...... that the economy of America and Canada can indeed be compared with Rome..... and a woman has valid reason to consider herself in something of a Masada scenario..... so if she chooses partial suicide... in the form of (abortion)...... that is a choice that I can regard as "ethical" under these extreme circumstances.

    The upcoming years and decades could be even worse because a powerful case can be presented that we have left ourselves wide open to a massive devaluation of the USA dollar..... which would give women even more genuine reason to decide to terminate their pregnancies.
     
  10. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    add to that-that pain is more than just a physical sensation, it also involves the ability to recognise pain responses for what they are within the brain .. hence why a young child shows no fear of a naked flame and will touch it, it is not until after that point that they have the necessary experience to understand what being burnt "feels" like and associated it with a flame.. it is impossible for a fetus to have had any pain experience at the time frames suggested by some pro-lifers.
     
  11. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    All living cells have an electrical charge, it was wrongly reported that this electrical charge showed that plants and pre 36 week fetuses had "brain waves", that assertion was shot full of holes when a group of students conducted the same tests on a bowl of Jello and got the same level of readings back as the plant and pre-36 week fetuses, also all living cells have a natural reflex action to noxious substances .. that reaction does not equate to emotional or controlled responses.

    In its simplest form, a reflex is viewed as a function of an idealized mechanism called the reflex arc. The primary components of the reflex arc are the sensory-nerve cells (or receptors) that receive stimulation, in turn connecting to other nerve cells that activate muscle cells (or effectors), which perform the reflex action. There is no conscious action, it is all reflex, a bit like when a doctor tests your reflex action by hitting that certain spot just below your knee cap, it is impossible for you to consciously stop your leg from jerking no matter how hard you try.
     
  12. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    If the nerves haven't developed yet, how is it that the fetus moves around??

    Or do those pain receptors conveniently wait to develop just a few months before the fetus is born?
     
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  13. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Try reading .. it's called reflex action, and even IF by some small chance there is a connection to the brain it still does not mean a fetus can feel pain, pain is more than just a physical reaction to something it also involves psychological responses which a fetus prior to 24 weeks simply cannot have.

    The neural regions and pathways that are responsible for pain experience remain under debate but it is generally accepted that pain from physical trauma requires an intact pathway from the periphery, through the spinal cord, into the thalamus and on to regions of the cerebral cortex including the primary sensory cortex (S1), the insular cortex and the anterior cingulated cortex. Fetal pain is not possible before these necessary neural pathways and structures have developed. The anterior cingulate is part of the cerebral cortex, which begins to develop in the fetus at week 26.

    The pain receptors (nerves) are present quite early in the fetuses development... however the necessary connections to the relevant parts of the brain are not, neither is the psychological requirements, hence why a young child shows no fear of a naked flame and will touch it, it is not until after that point that they have the necessary experience to understand what being burnt "feels" like and associated it with a flame.. it is impossible for a fetus to have had any pain experience at the time frames suggested by some pro-lifers.

    One could ask the question of any person, what does it feel like to be strangled, what pain do you feel and unless that person has been strangled they will not be able to answer the question with ANY degree of accuracy. So Anders, assuming you have not been strangled, please tell us all what pain strangling causes?
     
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  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Truly excellent questions Anders Hoveland!

    My suspicion over these past few years is that there has been some research into parapsychology that is highly relevant to the issue of abortion but due to the church not understanding the possible hidden meaning in many of the teachings of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus we are not making full use of this info.

    Basically………….. I now believe that it is the most "Elohim like" aspect of the human spirit - soul that goes through a first trimester abortion.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/polit...ambach-ph-d-research-ndes-issue-abortion.html
    The Helen Wambach Ph. D. research, NDE's and the issue of ABORTION??!!
    Helen Wambach Ph. D. did a fascinating study on volunteers who were hypnotized in which they reported having some sort of higher dimensional consciousness that existed before birth. This consciousness came into the foetus at or near birth!!!!!!

    http://www.carolmoore.net/articles/helenwambach.html
    -

    Kevin Williams is one of the most off the scale brilliant intellects that I have ever had the privilege to read tons of web pages by and he is personally pro-choice due to his research on NDE accounts:


    http://near-death.com/atwater/column/archives/2005/2005_11.html

    On the other hand.....I must advocate caution on this issue due to the implications of what was shown to Christian Andreason during his NDE regarding his over -soul?????!!!!
     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am not certain how relevant this is but in some research that was similar to Helen Wambach Ph. D. there was a regression therapist who hypnotically regressed a volunteer in time…….. over the phone!

    This proved to be a dangerous thing to do because this person saw what they perceived as a past life in which they had been executed by hanging.

    This person experienced the symptoms of strangulation and…… as you can guess…… getting somebody out of the trance state over the phone…… is more difficult than in a one on one session!

    Cases like this are one of the valid reasons as to why the nation of Israel has outlawed many types of hypnotic regression under hypnosis.
     
  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jello is mostly water….. the water in the Dr. Masaru Emoto research seems to be somehow connecting to a more fundamental form of energy that lies at the seat of consciousness and also…… the experiencing of pain or pleasure?

    http://www.masaru-emoto.net/english/water-crystal.html
     
  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is certainly an intelligent comment that represents a significant percentage of people who are concerned about this issue….. but the opening post gives a link to an article that contains evidence….. that your assertion…… may well be incorrect!
     
  18. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't see anything in the OP about fetal pain. However, here is a good source:

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429
     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you …. that is a good link….. the link in the opening post is:

    http://www.abortionfacts.com/books/why-cant-we-love-them-both

    Then you scroll way way down until you see:
    …...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Continued…..
    - - - Updated - - -

    Continued…..

     
  20. dridder

    dridder Member

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    I couldn't answer as I don't think abortion has anything to do with God or theology. It is to do with humanity, and the fact that we should protect those who can not protect themselves, and that no one should be okay with killing a being that has so many human qualities without a good reason. People don't need God to be morally and socially responsible.
     
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  21. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Probably not true. Research indicates plants feel pain and they never have a brain.
     
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  22. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree!

    I read the Readers Digest condensed version of The Secret Life of Plants back in the 1990's and frankly….. I was kind of shocked!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants
     
  23. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It kind of was a fascinating weird out when I found out that there has been research showing that plants respond to some surgical sedatives in the same way humans do. Leave it to the French to come up with something so odd.
     
  24. dridder

    dridder Member

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    I believe most researchers have already agreed that at this point in time they can not say without a doubt that a fetus can not feel pain prior to 24 weeks. This is because their is no way for them to determine if it could experience a pain like sensation that is registered in another part of the body.

    A fetus can sense touch from 10 weeks, some people claim earlier. So if they can sense touch it is probably safe to make the assumption they can experience "discomfort" if not "pain".

    Have you ever been awake during a surgery after a spinal block? I have, and although it was not painful it was very uncomfortable.

    Regardless, "pain" was not the deal breaker for me. It was seeing a little moving being with far too many human features. I couldn't kill a cat, dog, horse, fish or lizard except in the case of self defence or mercy. So i can't comprehend how anyone could kill something that looks so human for any reason other than mercy or self defence.
     
  25. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    NO...it does not. Nor does "Research Indicate" that ancient aliens created Humans by fornicating with Neanderthals.
     

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