My Life in Sex: The Ethical Non-Monogamist

Discussion in 'Gay & Lesbian Rights' started by kazenatsu, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    15,921
    Likes Received:
    4,727
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As the world turns....and churns...[​IMG] Not something I'd normally post but it was popular on another forum, lol. [​IMG]


    My life in sex: the ethical non-monogamist

    September 2020

    I’m happily dating four people, who are aware of each other. How can we expect one partner to meet all our desires? (me - [​IMG])


    ----I’m a woman who’s always been interested in ethical non-monogamy (ENM) – all partners agree to seeing other people – but had only been in monogamous relationships. Then, a year ago, mine ended and I was free to explore. ( me -[​IMG])


    ----I began using an ENM dating app, at first fearing people would be aggressively sexual, or show a lack of respect. In fact, 99% of people I interacted with were emotionally intelligent, open-minded and kind. Now, I’m happily dating four people – two men and a male-female couple. They are aware of each other, and adore me in different ways. (me - [​IMG])


    ----Since March, I haven’t spent much time with anyone apart from my housemates. But I’ve stayed in contact with everyone, and made plans for picnics soon. (me - [​IMG])

    ----How can we expect one person to meet all our needs? Sexually, I enjoy playing with different power dynamics; seeing multiple people allows me to do that. Yes, it’s harder to stay on top of your calendar, and there is more room to disappoint multiple people when you’re not honest with what you can give, sexually and emotionally. (me - [​IMG])


    ----But I could not go back to monogamy. I now prioritize myself more, and am able to evaluate what someone can bring to my life and what I can offer in return. (me - [​IMG])​


    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/sep/11/my-life-in-sex-the-ethical-non-monogamist


    comment from one person:

    Many of the younger generations are self indulgent, pampered and all about 'me me me'. Yes, the schools and society indoctrinate them, but - the parents had the first 5 or 6yrs of their lives to teach them 'yes and no'. When my kids were tiny I always had a coffee table in front of the couch and I always had some 'things' sitting on it that they weren't allowed to touch. I can still remember one of them, at 2yrs old, walking over to the table, reaching out and then stopping and shaking their head and saying 'no no no'. They had already learned!

    Through the years I saw parents shout 'no' at their kids, and when the child did it anyway the parent just sat there and shook their head and said 'oh well'...... They were lazy and the child learned that there would be no reprimand! Sorry for my long rants, I could go on endlessly about this topic. I once read that a child has to learn 'how to love' by the age of 2yrs!​

    comment from someone else:

    I live in "Liberalville", so I've gotten to see the grown-up young adult children of the Hippie generation. Their parents gave them names like "Ananda" (Hindu god) or "Solar".
    They in turn have lived the "free" lifestyle like their parents. Which means their open relationships didn't last long, but now they have children with those people they are no longer with. I am talking about 30-year-olds who have one or two children but are single... but still trying to carry on "open" relationships with other people.
    It seems kind of f**ked up for the children. Obviously things are financially difficult for them with those children, but living the single life.
    (No designated parent to watch the children, and having to rent separate households... often they are having to live with roommates, which is difficult when you have children)
    third comment:

    It's far from "unusual" these days. Especially in certain parts of the country (liberal West Coast).

    Maybe as much as 1 out of 3, maybe even 40% of the young people.

    I have a family member who's "experimented" among that community. They said that it sounds like a good idea in theory, but they've never actually seen it work out in very well in practice. There's too much jealousy, an innate human emotion. The people in those relationships try to pretend it isn't there and suppress those feelings, but it inevitably ends up bubbling to the surface.

    Another problem is it's all fun and games when you're in your 20s, but what about when you get older in your 40s and 50s?
    It's no longer so easy to "hook up" then, and it becomes kind of pathetic if you do. These people have little practice with committed monogamous relationships, so they often end up alone later in life, or in extremely shallow relationships, to have a little sex with their partner once or twice a week and then never see them outside of that.

    If you fall in love in your 20s, you may still be in love in your 60s with that person. That's far less likely to be able to happen in your 60s. Especially when you have become accustomed to the "swinging" lifestyle... commitment isn't exactly a natural thing to those people.​
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  2. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As one living the poly lifestyle in my 50's, and knowing 3+ poly units with members in their 60's and beyond, that have been successful for decades, I laugh at these people who think that failures are indicative of the whole of the lifestyle. By that metric, monogamy has failed miserably.
     
    Bowerbird likes this.
  3. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,535
    Likes Received:
    10,405
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What does this have to do with gay or lesbian rights?

    People should be free to pursue what makes them happy as long as they are not harming an unwilling adult participant.
     
  4. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Because there is no specific section this would be best in. And since LBGT tends to cover many alternative lifestyles poly.is frequently associated, if loosely, with it.
     
    Bowerbird likes this.
  5. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Messages:
    13,042
    Likes Received:
    4,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just as long as you underline the word 'ethical' in that word phrase, I could care less, which is exactly what we should be doing with our monogamist relationships as well. Focus on the word and be real sure each participant in these sexual relationships knows how the others defines the term.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    15,921
    Likes Received:
    4,727
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Do you believe there are some situations where it is possible to be unethical, even if both involved parties ostensibly give their consent?

    (Some examples: A woman who is abused, but she stays in the relationship out of dysfunctional emotional dependence and fear of being alone and unloved; Women in the Black community who are often forced into "man sharing", because there is a shortage of men and the man knows he can get away with it. How about predatory lending? The rationale behind minimum wage laws? Men taking advantage of women who are pushed into prostitution by poverty?)
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  7. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    15,286
    Likes Received:
    10,745
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Doesnt sound very emotionally healthy to me...

    But this is America. So its none of my business.

    :boxing::alcoholic::afro::hippie::salute::relax::please::smoking::machinegun:
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 12:01 AM
  8. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Messages:
    13,042
    Likes Received:
    4,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yes any major power differential will create the potential for victimization. The very essence of ethics and morality in personal behavior is founded on a premise of handling your personal power in such a way as to minimize the victimhood of others and protecting the more vulnerable from exploitation. It may not be codified in statute secondary to liberty concerns, but we still provide social/cultural sanction and 'judgement' in situations where we perceive such victimization. Long before we had liberalized rape statutes on more nuanced notions of consent, the notion of a man getting a woman drunk and 'taking advantage' sexually was deemed a scummy amoral and crass thing to do. It might get the crap kicked out of you by a brother or father.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 1:05 AM
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    15,921
    Likes Received:
    4,727
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So although polygamy might have the possibility of being capable of being ethical in a specific situation, would you concede that certain systems/institutions are more prone to being unethical than others, and there might be something very inherent in the specific system that leads to it being much more likely to be unethical?

    I mean, might we point to certain instances in history in the institution of slavery where slavery was a good situation in a very specific instance?
    But we should not let that fact, the possibility of specific positive anecdotes, justify that system in general.
    Or paedophilia; there is a possibility of that system involving ethical consent and being beneficial to both parties, but again, we should not let that automatically justify it on general level.
    Again, prostitution. Not everyone is of the extreme Libertarian view, and there is a tendency of society to recognise the power dynamic inherent in that is not generally conducive to ethical free consent. (This includes many extremely progressive societies in Europe, the woman is viewed as the victim)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 1:31 AM
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    39,357
    Likes Received:
    10,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Future cat lady (if she isn't one already). I can picture her at age 72 - no one's interested because she has no idea how to have a stable relationship, she's renting a crappy apartment, all her relatives are dead or disinterested, no kids - and wondering where it all went so horribly wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 1:24 AM
    kazenatsu likes this.
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    39,357
    Likes Received:
    10,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    :puke:
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    15,921
    Likes Received:
    4,727
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It seems we have some differing views here.
    That always makes these threads more exciting and lively.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 1:35 AM
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    15,921
    Likes Received:
    4,727
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Does that include emotional harm?

    How about bringing home an STD, to your lovely wife/partner who knew you were out "swinging" but was too naive to realise the ramifications?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 1:40 AM
  14. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,535
    Likes Received:
    10,405
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Do I believe these are “moral” — no
    But yes, people are adults — we should treat them as such
     
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    15,921
    Likes Received:
    4,727
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you agree, we should toss out domestic violence laws and just treat it like any other form of assault, yes?
    The one being abused is an adult and she can make up her own mind.

    I just want to make absolutely sure we don't leave any inconsistencies here, if we are going to jump onboard a philosophy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 1:55 AM
  16. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Messages:
    13,042
    Likes Received:
    4,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sure it is probably true that when there are two different lifestyle choices it would be odd to discover that both were likely to produce exactly the same potential for power disparity and victimhood. One is inevitably going to be statistically little more ethically 'safer' from victimhood than the other. But I just don't think we are necessarily smart to try to predict that based on whether there is a commitment to either an open or closed relationship. An 'open' relationship enhances some forms of power and exploitation and it immunizes against other forms of power and exploitation. Its all about the individual using their own judgement about which lifestyle will offer the greater risk or benefit in their relationship.

    I sense a long, civil and probably interesting colloquy in the making, so I must forewarn you. Bed and sleep awaits and it will be followed by about 9 hours of hard labor , so your next post, will probably not receive a prompt answer, no matter how intriguing.

    'Real life' - the arch enemy of PF discourse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 2:09 AM
    Maquiscat and Bowerbird like this.
  17. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,535
    Likes Received:
    10,405
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am not sure what you are asking, domestic assault is still assault — it has increased penalties in some states but not all. The term changes because of the living situation of the individuals.

    Do not conflict actual physical abuse, threats of physical harm and assault with emotional abuse such as neglect, gas lighting, lying, et cetera and do not twist my words to indicate such.
     
    Bowerbird likes this.
  18. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    63,354
    Likes Received:
    45,027
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Doesn’t it just grate that there is a dual standard on this? The current president of the USA is an acknowledged serial Sexual predator With strong indications that the predation was NOT consensual and yet......

     
  19. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And exactly which part is affecting you?
     
    Bowerbird likes this.
  20. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Are there conditions where the other laws against assault would not cover situations that the domestic violence laws do?
     
  21. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Emotional harm would have to be considered on an individual basis, as, for that matter, would physical harm. We can't assume any given action will cause the same emotional response in everyone. At the least, we have to allow for, if there is no evidence against it, when a person said, that they were not emotionally harmed. Best way I can example that is in the BDSM lifestyle context. Humiliation play is an actual kink. The "victim" wants it, but within that controlled environment from the person they trust. Such treatment from a stranger or one they did not consent to perform the humiliation, could do them emotional harm.

    As to your STD example, if you are ever having sex outside a closed relationship (which can include a closed poly relationship), then STD's are a risk. Obviously, all steps should be taken to minimize that risk, just like steps are taken to minimize the risks of skydiving, for example. If a person is too naive to realize that STD's are a risk from outside sex, then they are also probably too naive to be in a monogamous relationship where other advantages could be taken of them.
     
  22. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Would you in turn concede that certain systems are viewed with extreme bias, and thus perceived with more harm, or more incidents of harm, than they actually produce? Or that are viewed only by a small portion of their participants, and thus receive a skewed perception?

    NOr should we let negative anecdotes justify being against that system. Any system is subject to abuse. Furthermore, the presence of the system may not be the cause of the harm to the victims. Correlation/causation fallacy is a common one when people talk about polygamy, yet alone polyamory.

    Pedophilia is not a system. It is a mental disorder, one in which the sufferer may or may not have victimized another individual. And yet people would as quickly harm one who only has a diagnosis of the disorder, but no victims, as they would one who has hurt many children. Furthermore, Pedophilia is only for a certain age range of non-adults. There are other philias that cover two other ranges, with a third being debated as to add it to the list. Yet we have those out there who would claim that a 20 yo is a pedophile for having sex with a 17 yo.
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    39,357
    Likes Received:
    10,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The mental image of three over 60's getting it on.

    There's a reason movies only have sex scenes involving people under 40.
     
  24. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That's an assumption on your part. I knew a couple from my dad's church who got married in their 90's. It was the wife who said, "you can forget about us consummating this thing." or to that effect. This was 3 or 4 decades ago. Poly isn't necessarily about sex. For that matter, neither is monogamy, unless specifically used to describe the sexual aspect.
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    39,357
    Likes Received:
    10,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, I'm pretty much just picturing a bunch of 65 year olds rolling around naked together. I'm under no illusions that old bodies are 'desirable' in the same way breeding age bodies are. Nature doesn't need us to be sexy at 65.

    Like I said, :puke:
     

Share This Page