'Nazi Grandma' sent to jail again for Holocaust denial

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by SamSkwamch, Oct 12, 2016.

  1. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    Nope. It's a quote from the article in the Op. :roflol:
     
  2. Gaius_Marius

    Gaius_Marius Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed. And every day shows just how dangerous and harmful "freedom of speech" and the right to spew bull(*)(*)(*)(*) with no consequence is... I mean... The mental divide in the US is freaking scary. That people in so called free societies can be less informed than people who live in non free societies tells you that capitalism and free speech cannot remain unregulated together.
     
  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    your answer is what? lock up the people you disagree with?
     
  4. Gaius_Marius

    Gaius_Marius Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did it say that anywhere? I don't think so.
    It says it needs to be regulated. Do you disagree? Do you disagree that countries with strong presence of private media also seem to have the largest segments of the population with completely unreal ideas about their society?

    It's a complex issue. Clearly news outlets and information dissemination must be regulated either with fines or huge disclaimers. I don't exactly how you would do it. Coming from a country that had no private tv station until late 90's and where everything was controlled by state bodies I know that that kind of misinformation never existed.
     
  5. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First, I'd like to thank you for the civility of your Comments with the exception of your flawed dismissal the fact that History IS, in fact, written by the Victors.

    Do you really think that Hitler would be so widely demonized if Germany had won WW 2?

    While I lived, worked & studied in Germany (1970s) (Albert Ludwigs Universitat Freiburg, several Goethe Institutes etc) I also came to know many German Wehrmacht & Waffen SS Veterans through the jobs I worked & dinners at their homes etc.
    I noted none of the hate filled, fanaticism, fascist tendencies or any of cruelties assigned to them by individuals whose sole knowledge of Germans consists of the glut of WW 2 propaganda endemic to US Movies & distorted TV "Documentaries"

    Because I, too, am a Veteran of a lost War ( Viet Nam) these generous & gentlemanly German Veterans & I shared a common bond that non Combat Veterans cannot understand.

    When I referred to Frau Haverbeck's "education" relative to her "detractors", I was thinking more of her personal experiences compared to those who support the fascist agenda of incarcerating individuals for what they write or say rather than the veracity of her assertions.

    Admittedly, I know less about Frau Haverbeck than you. It may be that she currently suffers from some form of dementia or, as you say: "cognitive disonance "sic (Cognitive dissonance).
    If such is the case, then it is even more compelling that she not be incarcerated for "Thought Crimes"

    Since the title of this Thread is: " 'Nazi Grandma' sent to jail again for Holocaust denial", I was speaking for her right to Freedom of Expression.

    It is my opinion that it is a far greater & chilling, fascist crime to lock up an individual for expressing their beliefs than anything she may say or write.

    If something is true, it can withstand criticism, open debate & honest examination. Only Lies need totalitarian "Thought Crime" Laws.
     
  6. PolakPotrafi

    PolakPotrafi Banned

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    Jailing people for their opinions is reminiscent of the Nazis, and Soviets.

    It's funny how the ANTIFA (Anti-Fascists) despite being anti-Fascist, often act just like Fascists just in a Leftist direction.
     
  7. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so who is gonna decide what is worthy of a fine? is blasphemy a fining offense?

    .
     
  8. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MORE HOLO-EVASIONS"




    And, once again the same lies, insults & evasions


    1. Show ONE TIME that you and your fanatical Holocaustians have debunked the fact that:

    "In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communi-cations between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were inter-cepted and decrypted.

    Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative.

    The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED [1]



    Re:
    Billions of people around the world reject your fragile & exploitative Holocaustian Cult Just as no one is interested in your silly & ignorant, puerile pseudo-Psychology.


    The reasons for rejecting the myth that 6 Million Jews were executed under German direction are solid & innumerable.
    The fact that you cannot refute even ONE of them exposes the fragility of your crassly exploited Holocaustian dogma.


    ”THE WORLD IS FULL OF HOLOCAUST DENIERS”
    http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...he-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/

    EXCERPT “ Only 54 percent of the world's population has heard of the Holocaust.
    54 percent.(*)
    This is the most staggering statistic in a new survey by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of more than 53,000 people in over 100 countries, conducted by First International Resources.

    But that figure speaks to only those who have heard of it:

    Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts.

    Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth.

    Thirty percent of respondents said it's probably true that "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust."

    - Hindus were most likely to believe that the number of Holocaust deaths has been exaggerated.

    - people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted"CONTINUED


    You'll note that:
    "people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted" which also debunks your contention that most older non Holocaustians ("Drool Buckets") are dying off.


    Even 8th Graders dismiss the many myths of Holocaust® lore:


    "- One student declared there was no way the Holocaust occurred because the Nazis “would have had to have killed 187 people an hour in order to kill 6 million people. Therefore it is impossible.”


    - One student wrote that if the Nazis “would have even experimented these so called gas chambers the Nazis would have died also, so I do not believe in gas chambers.”


    - Another made a similar argument: “if gassing would have occurred everyone (nearby) would have died, because the floors had cracks in the floor and holes in the wall.”


    - Still another asserted “there is no significant cyanide traces in any of the alleged gas chambers. So any open minded person can easily be persuaded to believe that the gassings were a Hoax.”CONTINUED [2]


    I guess Hasbara hirelings of the Holocaust® Industry are going to have to work harder to repress critical literacy, Independent media & free speech with the billions & billions of "Holocaust deniers" around the world still growing.


    [1] “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom
    https://www.scribd.com/document/282721687/Breaking-the-Spell-the-Holocaust-Myth-Reality


    [2] “SHOCK:District’s ‘critical thinking’ assignment led at
    least 50 students to conclude Holocaust never occurred”
    http://eagnews.org/shock-districts-...tudents-to-conclude-holocaust-never-occurred/
     
  9. Eadora

    Eadora Well-Known Member

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    So you admit to needing to use threat, censorship and oppression
    in order to protect and enshrine what you believe to be the Truth ?

    You only foolishly give people good cause & reason to question such a Truth -

    Any Truth so "weak in the knee" that it cannot stand on its own
    as any Legitimate Truth is able to do - & needs threat, censorship and
    ..... oppression in order for it to maintain its standing is crippled & invalid

    If you have to Criminalize the questioning of your Truth in order for your Truth
    to maintain its Validity - Your Truth will inevitably become to be seen as a Lie

    I suppose that Zionists Ideologues are unable to perceive that they damage their
    own cause in this manner, as they are so inspired & blinded by their own Irrational
    ....................................................................................Fears & perverse Hatereds
    .
     
  10. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    No I admit to posting a quote from Sam's link.
     
  11. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Interesting comment. Interesting also that the user "jazz" liked it. I'm familiar with his stance regarding the Shoa.
    I still think History is not written by the victor. First of all, there is never one history, but many. I don't know what you studied in the 70s, if it was History you should know better IMO. The history of WW II differs quite a bit depending on who you ask and whose study you read. If we look at WW I, we can clearly see that the Brits have a different narrative than the Germans.
    You mentioned Vietnam, the History of the Vietnam War is in large parts written by American historians and the US lost that conflict.
    I'd agree that the narrative of the victor is often the most powerful (Hiroshima & Nagasaki). But history written by the victor is something horribly superficial and inaccurate to me.

    Those documentaries and especially Hollywood movies are probably among the worst sources one could possibly use.
    Your comments concerning those veterans are not really relevant in the given context, but I see what you mean.
    Have you ever read Harald Welzer: Täter: wie aus ganz normalen Menschen Massenmörder werden? This is just one of several studies that show how those normal people that you describe can turn into something completely different if the context not only allows, but almost demands it.
    Another extremely interesting study is Felix Römer: Die Wehrmacht von innen. Enough of that.

    One could definitely argue that a law that doesn't allow a certain opinion (denying the Holocaust) is a law against the freedom of speech. Well, that's just the way it is in roughly 15 or more countries, whether we like it or not. I for one don't have a problem with this (in this particular case). There are idiotic laws in many parts of the world. In Germany's case - as you probably know - the public display of Nazi symbols (if not used as a form of art, which is debated quite often) and the public denial of the Holocaust are considered an offence.

    You should be able to read German:
    The German law says this:
    Beim Leugnen des Holocaust handelt es sich
    um eine Tatsachenbehauptung, die nach ungezählten Augenzeugenberichten und Dokumenten, den Feststellungen der Gerichte in zahlreichen Strafverfahren und den Erkenntnissen der Geschichtswissenschaft erwiesen unwahr ist. Für sich genommen genießt eine Behauptung dieses Inhalts daher nicht den Schutz der Meinungsfreiheit.

    However, there are people in the legal profession in Germany (among them former judges of the Federal Constitutional Court) who argue that it shouldn't be regarded as an offence and that the law should be abandoned.
    In my opinion, granny Ursula still is a complete dork. In addition to what I've already mentioned she's also convinced that Hitler had a God given mission in a world-historical context (her words).
    It should be pointed out that this not the first time she's been in court. She's been in court five times so far for different offences, not just Holocaust denial, and was fined several thousand Euros. Her obstinacy (the court called it fanatical blindness) brought her where she is now.

    Thanks for pointing out the missing "s" in "dissonance", English is a foreign language to me.
     
  12. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    Courtesy of disgraced academics and grade schoolers.

    Oh sorry forgot, your opinion poll. Here's another;

    ""Only 1 percent of those surveyed said it was possible that the Holocaust had never happened, and another 8 percent said they did not know; 91 percent said they were certain it had happened. ""

    Britannica;

    ""Holocaust, the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II.""

    Looks like once again i have you painted into a corner dear Grau. Your only options are to either tell me that unlike you who is an anonymous poster while I am a user of my own name which is verifiable on the net as an employed individual who makes far more than he could be paid by any foreign government to make posts to counter you antisemitism that I am a Hasbara agent. That doesn't counter what I post by the way but just seems to make you feel better while you post anonymously from behind a computer and using a fake name.

    your other choice is to say that Britannica is owned by a Jew which changes nothing as it is peer reviewed and the article is an adapted one from prior to the reference publication being owned by a Jew so that one won't fly and last but not least you can say that. And last, you can post more stuff from antisemitic Holocaust Denial sites to counter what I post from non partial sites that espouse Historical Fact.

    See, you have a long way to go to first create the doubt you wish as history backs me, not your antisemitic hate sites.

    Oh, don't forget to tell us all about the Israeli Sniper in Iraq who was identified because only Israel knows how to duct tape a camera to a rifle or how German trains that are the only trains in Israel. That one was good for a laugh! :roflol:
     
  13. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for the honorable mention!:clapping:

    So, Mrs. Haverbeck is a "complete Dork"?
    I think you forget that she actually lived during WWII. Her perspective naturally is quite different from all the younger "dorks" who have been and are still being brainwashed to this day.
    Check out this random video...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByO3n9F8ww

    I find it offensive and an insult to the German people. The internet is full with this kind of "anti-Germanium". Why don't they finally stop this crude and blunt propaganda? Aren't the Jews realizing that hate begets hate? Or is their aim to "create" antisemitism?? Why, after 76 years, do the great-great-grandchildren still have to listen and learn this anti-German hatred? There should also be a law enacted against this kind of anti-Germanium as well as anti-Islam and anti-Russia. What's good for one goose should be good for all geese! Otherwise justice is very lopsided.

    Btw., your hinting of my "stance" about the shoa comes across as a threat. You truly have no idea what sort of stance I hold. As far as I know I'm still wondering and learning.

    Re: Ursula Haverbeck

    – Januar 1995 --​

    [​IMG]
    It would help to read her and her husband's book before you call her a "complete dork"!

    https://www.amazon.de/Weltkampf-die-Gemeinschaft-Entwicklung-Volksordnung/dp/3878471548

    She seems to be well connected with Dr. Rudolf Steiner and his Anthroposophy. Perhaps you have heard of the Waldorf School concept and Weleda products and Bio-dynamic Farming and Gardening... just to get an idea where she comes from.
     
  14. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I'm the wrong person. I know you deny the Holocaust and to me that's just utterly idiotic. I also know that in your opinion I (and everybody who believes the "propaganda by the victors") am probably brainwashed and you have discovered "the truth."
    Please, look for others to talk to, it just doesn't make any sense to me.
    Fell free to believe what you want and, yes, granny Ursula is a complete dork.
     
  15. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Britannica was bought and re-written by some Jewish people. It is no longer neutral and unbiased!

    Read here:
    https://igoralexander.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/encyclopedia-britannica-owned-by-jewish-billionaire/
     
  16. Jackster

    Jackster New Member

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    Sadly few countries value the classic liberal values these days - the left are for their special interest group collectives. Nothing to do with the individual at all. And the right has far too many neo-con establishment that need flushing away.
     
  17. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:
    While you're welcome to your opinion, you should know that many well respected thinkers feel very differently:


    1. George Orwell once wrote: “Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.”


    2. “History is written by the victors.”
    ― Walter Benjamin
    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/97949-history-is-written-by-the-victors


    3. “History is written by the victors.” Winston Churchill
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/winstonchu380864.html


    Re:
    Again, you're welcome to your opinion about Frau Haverbeck but my understanding is that this Topic is about her right to express her opinions openly & freely.

    Since your command of the English language is as advanced as it is, I think you would be better served by avoiding such puerile terms as "dork".
    I mention this in the same friendly spirit as I did in pointing out "dissonance" vs disonance"

    Just because we may disagree on issues salient to WW 2 etc doesn't mean we can't disagree with civility & mutual respect.
     
  18. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "MORE EVASIONS, ZIONIST PROPAGANDA & OFF-TOPIC GIBBERISH"


    Firstly, the Poll I cited was originally conducted by the ADL & excerpts of it were taken from "The Atlantic" but since your Hasbara Handbook apparently instructs you to label ANY source debunking Holocaustian lore as:
    , your Boilerplate accusation is meaningless as the rest of your Off Topic references to Israeli murders of Americans & incessant German reparations to Holocaust Hoaxers" (**).


    Your Poll conducted by the Israeli owned (*) Encyclopædia Britannica makes no mention of who was polled, where they were polled, their age-group & is essentially meaningless.

    The fact remains that Billions of people around the world dismiss Holocaustian lore as: ".... a lie, a myth, a hoax, a conspiracy by those with a political or ideological agenda.”[1]

    ”THE WORLD IS FULL OF HOLOCAUST DENIERS”
    http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...he-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/

    EXCERPT “ Only 54 percent of the world's population has heard of the Holocaust.
    54 percent.(*)
    This is the most staggering statistic in a new survey by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of more than 53,000 people in over 100 countries, conducted by First International Resources. But that figure speaks to only those who have heard of it: Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts. Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth. Thirty percent of respondents said it's probably true that "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust."
    - Hindus were most likely to believe that the number of Holocaust deaths has been exaggerated.

    - people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted"CONTINUED




    For all your Off Topic self praise, you have yet to refute the following simple fact that your gullible Holocaustians consistently evade:

    1. “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort – but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system.

    The revealed information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics."[2]



    Typhus was so widespread due to lack of medicine & other life sustaining supplies that 14,000 Inmates died in Belsen AFTER the arrival of the British.
    Should the British C.O. have been prosecuted for "War Crimes" for the 14,000 Inmates who died under his control?



    (*) “Encyclopedia Britannica owned by Jewish(*)billionaire”
    https://igoralexander.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/encyclopedia-britannica-owned-by-jewish-billionaire/

    EXCERPT “....the Encyclopedia Britannica has been owned by Jewish billionaire Jacqui (Jacob) Eli Safra! Safra is a movie producer and the heir of a Jewish banking family.

    Additionally, starting in May 2001, Britannica’s CEO was an Israeli Jew named Ilan Yeshua, who had previously worked for the Tel Aviv-based educational technology firm Centre for Educational Technology, which was aquired by Safra’s Britannica.com.
    Yet more evidence of how pervasive is the Jewish domination of our mass media.” CONTINUED


    (**) “Allegations of Fake Holocaust Claims Just Keep Growing”
    http://forward.com/articles/138473/allegations-of-fake-holocaust-claims-just-keep-gro/#ixzz3NUjH4LEg



    [1] “Did the Holocaust Exist?”
    http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at...ary-number-of-people-say-no-or-not-even-aware

    [2]"Breaking the Spell, The Holocaust: Myth & Reality" by Nicholas Kellerstrom --
    https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Spel...ll+kellerstrom
     
  19. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's one flaw with your post. You did not swear to uphold the German laws and regulations. You swore to defend United States constitution. Our superiors do now allow us to travel to other countries and tell them what they can or cannot enforce.

    So your post about you possibly having served in my Army, is 100% irrelevant to this exchange. This is a german court decision that has 100% nothing to do with the oath you posted.

    Glad I helped clear up your confusion, Private.
     
  20. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    Interesting that prior to being owned by Jews the encyclopedia said the same thing as it says now - Nazi Germany systematicly murdered six million Jews. Also interesting is the fact that only Holocaust Denial and antisemitic websites sych as what you just produced accuse Britannica of being biased.

    In short, no credible body has stated they are biased, on the contrary Britannica continues to win awards the world over for accurate and well reasearched articles.
     
  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for proving my point about deniers such as yourself and their mastery of logical fallacies.
     
  22. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "WEASEL WORDS & CHRONIC EVASION SYNDROME"



    That's the first time I've seen "Debunking Specious Myths" mislabeled as a "logical fallacy"

    1. for the SIXTH Time: show ONE TIME that you and your fanatical Holocaustians have debunked the fact that:

    "In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communi-cations between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were inter-cepted and decrypted.

    Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative.

    The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED [1]









    [1] “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom
    https://www.scribd.com/document/2827...t-Myth-Reality
     
  23. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You neither "cleared up my confusion" nor articulated your opinion as to the propriety of "Thought Crimes" here in America.

    Would you support similar laws to these German "Thought Crime" laws here, in the US, Recruit?
     
  24. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your post keeps getting dumber and dumber, guy. Now I know you never served in my Army.

    My job, as a soldier, is not to ever worry about the inner working of a foreign government or how they dictate their constitutional/monarchial/religious laws. Maybe you, as a civilian who never served his country before (and doesn't understand a Soldier's role) can spend all your time whining like a child about it, but since YOU were the one who brought up how the "military" should be viewing this, I'm glad I am once again here to clear up your confusion and to point out your blatant stolen valor. Any soldier knows that it's not our job to say "Hey Germany, you're not allowed to make that law!". That's the decision of the GERMAN people.

    Stop embarrassing yourself.
     
  25. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your job as an apparent Hasbara "Internet Soldier" posing as as a "US Soldier" is to distort, evade & obfuscate simple questions[1] (SEE #10):

    “Israel Hires Internet Soldiers to Penetrate American Forums, Chatrooms”
    http://deadlinelive.info/2011/07/22...diers-to-penetrate-american-forums-chatrooms/[2]

    I made no mention of trying to change German Laws, as reprehensible as they are, but have had to repeatedly ask what your opinions on Free speech as it relates to Frau Haverbeck since you are either incapable of answering that 1 simple question or oppose Free Speech in the US.

    Let's try this one more time & then I'm giving up since opinions of Hasbara "Internet Soldiers" mean nothing to me:

    If Mrs. / Frau Haverbeck were a US citizen, would you support or oppose laws restricting her freedom to "deny the Holocaust®"







    [1] “A Guide To HASBARA(*)TROLLS”

    https://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/a-guide-to-hasbara-trolls/
    EXCERPT:
    "Hasbara Troll attributes
    1. Supreme point of view
    2. The Hasbara troll knows best
    3. Condescending & Patronising
    4. Socialist (Smart and ‘caring’)
    5. Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
    6. Internet experts
    7. Narcissistic
    8. Provocative
    9. Dis-ruptive
    10. Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
    11. Control freaks
    12. Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
    13. ‘Moral’ Guardians
    14. Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
    15. Adept with social networks well trained on IT"CONTINUED




    [2]“Israel Hires Internet Soldiers to Penetrate American Forums, Chatrooms”
    http://deadlinelive.info/2011/07/22...diers-to-penetrate-american-forums-chatrooms/

    EXCERPT ““Israel hires Internet soldiers,” Israeli students and demobilized soldiers get paid to pretend they are just regular folks and leave pro-Israel comments online. Israeli Foreign Ministry Deputy Elan Shturman is quoted from the Israeli Occupation Magazine saying:
Quote:

    “Our people will not say:

    ‘Hello, I am from the hasbara department of the Israeli foreign ministry and I want to tell you the following.’

    Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis,” he said. “They will speak as net-surfers and as citizens, and will write responses that will look personal but will be based on a prepared list of messages that the foreign ministry developed.””CONTINUED
     

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