Negotiate Peace With Russia to Prevent War Over Ukraine

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Destroyer of illusions, Jan 2, 2022.

  1. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Russia started the war by invading Georgia.

    What Saakashvili bombed was the invading Russians.


    The criticism towards Russia is that they aggressively invaded an innocent country for no reason.

    Now, I will admit that NATO has no standing to complain after their own aggression against Serbia. But that does not change the fact that Russia is the aggressor in Georgia and Ukraine.


    The US never supported either Islamic State or al-Qa'ida.

    Assad and Russia supported Islamic State.


    The Russians in Donbas are exactly like the Albanian KLA in Kosovo.


    NATO is the predator in Serbia.

    Russia is the predator in Georgia and Ukraine.


    It is Russia who launches invasions during the Olympics.


    It is Russia who makes chemical attacks.


    I bring good news then. :)


    The US is not responsible for the genocide that Assad and Russia are committing against the Syrian people.

    Assad and Russia are responsible for their own crimes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
  2. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    The KGB hasn't "demonized" anyone in 31 years. It was disbanded when the Soviet Union imploded at the end of December 1991. :omg:

    Interesting that you mention Ukraine in 2014! Because that was when the "Maidan" revolt threw the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, out of office and made him run for his life!

    His 'crime'? He initiated closer ties to the Eurasian Economic Union, rather than opting for more pro-Western entanglement with entities like the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

    BTW -- The Eurasian Economic Union has an integrated single market of 184 million people and a gross domestic product of over $5 Trillion Dollars (international), and Yanukovych saw benefit for Ukraine without being treated like a poor 'step-child' by the EU instead.

    Anyway, the Kiev mobs threw him out, and according to many, they began persecuting the ethnic Russian people in the Ukrainian provinces in the "Donbas". After what the Maidan mobs pulled on Yanukovych, Putin decided he needed to protect the Russian Naval Black Sea Fleet headquartered in Sevastopol, and so, right or wrong, he annexed Crimea.

    OK, now the 'bubble' is more-or-less back at 'level'....
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
  3. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    And Afghanistan showed it perfectly. :roflol::roflol::roflol:
     
  4. Ixan Joben

    Ixan Joben Banned

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    I will answer to you and Dear Pixie. Firstly, the Budapest Memorandum concerned two countries - Ukraine and Belarus. One of the points of the memorandum concerned the economic impact. It sounds like this: "... confirm to the Republic of Belarus the obligation, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the CSCE, to refrain from economic coercion aimed at subordinating to its interests the exercise by the Republic of Belarus of the rights inherent in its sovereignty, and thus to secure an advantage of any kind."

    As for the economic pressure on Belarus from the United States, it went against one of the points, namely with regard to article 17 of this memorandum. To the statements of the Government of Belarus in connection with this issue, the response of the US Embassy was as follows: "Although the memorandum has no direct legal force, we take our political obligations to Belarus seriously and believe that the sanctions imposed by the United States - whether in connection with the human rights situation or concerns about non—proliferation issues - do not undermine our obligations and do not contradict them."
    In general, it is interesting that none of the countries that signed this memorandum has ratified this memorandum.

    Now about the Crimea. Crimea as part of Ukraine had the status of autonomy. I will tell you the story of how the status of Crimea changed after the collapse of the USSR and you will see a very interesting moment:

    1) On February 26, 1992, by the decision of the Supreme Soviet of the Republic, the Crimean ASSR was renamed the Republic of Crimea. On May 5 of the same year, the Supreme Council adopted the "Act on the Proclamation of State Independence of the Republic of Crimea ", the next day the Constitution of the Republic was adopted, defining it as a democratic sovereign state within Ukraine. Later, in response, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine issued a decree on the cancellation of the act, as it contradicted the Constitution of Ukraine, which defined Crimea as an autonomy.

    2) On June 14, 1993, the Supreme Council of Crimea introduced the post of President of the Republic of Crimea. On February 4, 1994, Yuri Meshkov, a representative of the Russia bloc, was elected by him, who received 72.9% of the votes in the second round. On March 27 of the same year, a referendum was held in Crimea, during which the majority of residents supported the expansion of autonomy, 83% also voted for the introduction of dual citizenship, designed for integration with Russia. The new leadership of Crimea faced a lack of support from Russia, which at that time was more focused on rapprochement with the United States. The CEC of Ukraine and the President of Ukraine Leonid Kravchuk called the referendum illegal. On September 21 , the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine decided to return the name Autonomous Republic of Crimea .

    3) On March 17, 1995, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine unilaterally abolished the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea of 1992 and abolished the office of President. On November 1, the Supreme Council of Crimea adopted a new constitution that did not provide for the office of president and sovereignty. In 1998, pro-Russian parties were defeated in the elections to the Supreme Council of Crimea, and in October of the same year, a new constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea was adopted, brought into line with the Basic Law of Ukraine. It operated until 2014.

    4) On March 6, 2014, the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea decided to join the Russian Federation. A referendum on this issue was held on March 16, 96.8% voted for it. On April 11, at an extraordinary meeting of the State Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, a new constitution of the republic was approved, on the same day Crimea was included in the list of subjects of the Constitution of the Russian Federation.
    The referendum held in Crimea is legally justified. The Republic of Crimea is autonomous, has its own constitution and has the right to hold a referendum, everything is correct. Also, the adoption of the results of the referendum refers to the Right of nations to self-determination, prescribed in the UN Charter. More than 80% of Crimean residents are Russian-speaking or have dual citizenship (Ukraine and Russia).

    As for the Russian troops in Crimea:
    Sevastopol, the capital of Crimea, is in fact one large Russian naval base. An increase in the contingent is a response to the threat. Imaginary or real - it doesn't matter. There is a threat, security systems are being strengthened.

    As for Donbass. On March 1, 2014, the Russian Senate gave Putin official permission to send troops to Donbass, referring to the protection of the Russian-speaking population, etc. And the most interesting thing is that the residents of Donbass also held a referendum on secession from Ukraine. And the residents of Donbass were only for Putin to come with his troops. But there is one big BUT. Donetsk and Luhansk regions are not autonomous. They are part of a sovereign country. According to the Laws, they cannot separate from the country and self-determine. The introduction of troops by Russia will mean direct aggression against Ukraine. In this case, however, the claims of the United States and the European Union to Russia, claims to Budapest and other sanctions would be justified. Hence, the Minsk Agreements were concluded between representatives of the EU (Merkel), Ukraine and representatives of the self-proclaimed people's republics, one of the points of which was to grant the "republics the status of autonomy." In addition, there were two other interesting points. Ukraine stops shooting (completely), withdraws troops from the border of the regions, gives autonomy to the regions in this case as well (this, by the way, was Putin's proposal, who, by the way, did not participate in the creation of these agreements (formally)) Donetsk and Luhansk regions remain part of Ukraine. It is characteristic that Poroshenko signed these agreements. And, in particular, this is one of the counts of accusing Poroshenko of treason. (Another reason is that he traded coal with Donetsk, trying to somehow give energy to Ukraine, and today the elite does not care)
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  5. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Governments know quite well where his and his friends' billions are and some of that is being washed and rinsed in European banks.
    Some of it is invested heavily in European property, yachts and international finance. (stocks and shares) and some of it is EVEN invested in a UK football team.
    To return to your dubious analysis of Poland, can you please show us evidence that Poland is wanting some land back post WW2. Poland is a full member of the EU (not Ukraine as you said) and NATO and has never shown any desire to extend its borders.
     
  6. Ixan Joben

    Ixan Joben Banned

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    If Ukraine joins NATO, will it be considered an extension of NATO's borders?
     
  7. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    First, he seems to want to IMPOSE political standards of behaviour.
    Not the west's way. We don't IMPOSE standards of behaviour since it deeply contradicts our ethnic, religious and historical traditions...which we include in freedom.
    Secondly this clearly reflects his rationale and desire to "reunite old Russia" .

    I do find this quote rather disturbing.​
     
  8. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Well yes. Of course.
    This sems precisely what Putin is worried about.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  9. Ixan Joben

    Ixan Joben Banned

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    These are your words "NATO and has never shown any desire to extend its borders" . It turns out that the desire to include Ukraine, Finland, Georgia in NATO is a desire to expand the borders of NATO
     
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  10. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Ixan wrote:

    I will answer to you and Dear Pixie. Firstly, the Budapest Memorandum concerned two countries - Ukraine and Belarus. One of the points of the memorandum concerned the economic impact. It sounds like this: "... confirm to the Republic of Belarus the obligation, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the CSCE, to refrain from economic coercion aimed at subordinating to its interests the exercise by the Republic of Belarus of the rights inherent in its sovereignty, and thus to secure an advantage of any kind."

    As for the economic pressure on Belarus from the United States, it went against one of the points, namely with regard to article 17 of this memorandum. To the statements of the Government of Belarus in connection with this issue, the response of the US Embassy was as follows: "Although the memorandum has no direct legal force, we take our political obligations to Belarus seriously and believe that the sanctions imposed by the United States - whether in connection with the human rights situation or concerns about non—proliferation issues - do not undermine our obligations and do not contradict them."
    In general, it is interesting that none of the countries that signed this memorandum has ratified this memorandum.


    Imposing sanctions does not violate sovereignty.
    Ask the US and China.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  11. Ixan Joben

    Ixan Joben Banned

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    What is sovereignty in your opinion?
     
  12. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    I did mean Poland has no desires to extend its borders...my apologies.
    However I can answer your post.
    NATO has never AFAIK sought to extend its borders. Each country has to apply and it is NATO which accepts or rejects their application.
    Neither Finland nor any of the others have applied to join and NATO has not "leaned" on them.
     
  13. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Right to govern itself in all matters including declaring war and signing peace treaties.
    Economic sanctions do not undermine sovereignty.
     
  14. Phyxius

    Phyxius Well-Known Member

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    Exactly right. Do as you will, no one has to buy your stuff or sell you theirs.
     
  15. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Therefore imposing economic sanctions on Belarus does not break the agreement anymore than imposing sanctions o China does not violate its sovereignty.
     
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  16. Ixan Joben

    Ixan Joben Banned

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    The definition states - sovereignty is the independence of the state in external affairs and the supremacy of state power in internal affairs. You tell me what to do in my own country with a citizen who has violated the law, while imposing sanctions against me. You are undermining my sovereignty.

    I will tell you a secret that crosses out all 36 pages of discussions on this topic. You are right about Putin's concern about Ukraine as part of NATO. That's all.

    Russia does not need Ukraine as a territory. There's nothing to take. Moreover, a lot of money used to be invested in it earlier. Russia sold gas to Ukraine CHEAPER than it sold it in Russia. There is NOTHING in Ukraine that I would like to get. What do they have? Coal in the Donbas? Russia has the Kuznetsk Basin, where you can eat this coal at least with your ass. There are fields of wheat there, of which there is plenty in Russia. There are 50% of people who hate Russia for reasons that they themselves cannot name. In Russia, Ukrainians are called hohly. There is a saying, it is as old as the world - a hohol was born, a Jew cried. Russian Russians consider Ukrainians to be brothers, Ukrainians shout "Muscovite on gilyaku" (Russian on the stake).

    Ukraine is also not interested as a trading partner. Yes, perhaps in some aspects trade relations would not be superfluous, but on a global scale Ukraine is a dummy. When Ukraine really wanted to join the European Union, it was discussed for a long time not even at the level of Governments, but at the level of ordinary citizens. What did they want? They needed a visa-free regime. This is all that the citizens of Ukraine wanted. Has Ukraine become a member of the European Union? No. She became an "associate member". Do you know what this reminds me of? It's like being ****ed, but on the floor of the penis. But they received simplified visas, which gave them the opportunity to travel to pick strawberries in Poland in a simplified way.
     
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  17. Ixan Joben

    Ixan Joben Banned

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    What #Toggle Almendro writes is partly true - a large percentage of residents aged 18 to 35 want to leave the country, preferably to the USA. Just like Ukrainians want to go to Europe. Do you know why? Because in Russia, unemployment benefits are paid only for 3 months and the amount of these benefits is $ 160 per month. And in the USA, in several states, they can live on benefits and enjoy their lives.

    #Toggle Almendro posts videos with homeless people and alcoholics (maybe homeless people and alcoholics at the same time), but are these homeless people and alcoholics a reflection of the entire Russian society? Absolutely not! Would it be true if I posted photos of homeless people in Florida as a reflection of US society? Absolutely not!

    #Toggle Almendro writes that in Russia more than 40 million live below the poverty line and will be partly right. However, I will give one parable from Russian fairy tales about Ivan on the stove, who caught a magic pike. He was a lazy guy who used magic to conjure himself a bunch of all sorts of bonuses. This problem is extensive. If in the Soviet Union the State fully provided for workers, including free distribution of housing, then under capitalism, under which Russia has been living for only 30 years, a person must provide for himself. He must live by the rule of "Do it or die", but not everyone understands this, still hoping for some kind of social preferences. Working in Russia, even in the regions, a salary of $ 25,000 per year is considered normal. At the prices that exist today in the Russian markets, this is a pretty good salary! (despite the fact that the mortgage payment in the region is $ 4,000 per year).

    #Toggle Almendro writes that Russia wants to attack the EU. I hope that Toggle Almendro will read this post and answer one simple question - Toggle Almendro, why would Russia attack the EU!?

    #Toggle Almendro writes that Russia attacked Georgia in 2008, will #Toggle Almendro challenge the official conclusions of the European Commission about who attacked whom?
     
  18. Jughashvili

    Jughashvili Newly Registered

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    September 30, 2009 - the head of the international independent commission of the European Union, Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini handed over the text of a report of more than one thousand hundred pages to representatives of Russia, Georgia, the EU, the OSCE and the UN. As you know, the five-day war that broke out in the Caucasus in August 2008 caused the deaths of approximately 650 people; more than 100,000 local residents lost their homes.

    The report notes that Georgia's "unjustified" attack on South Ossetia caused the outbreak of a large-scale war with Russia. This attack cannot be justified from the point of view of international law, experts said. At the same time, it was "only the culmination of a long period of increasing friction, provocations and incidents."

    The authors of the report also point out that after the Russian peacekeepers who were in South Ossetia were attacked by Georgian troops, Russia received the right to protect them, "using military measures proportional to the scale of the attack. Russia's use of force during the first phase of the conflict can be recognized as legitimate."
    Otherwise, you are also a victim of your media.
    Mod edit/Off topic
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2022
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  19. Ixan Joben

    Ixan Joben Banned

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    [QUOTE="Pixie"[/QUOTE]
    "They needed a visa-free regime. This is all that the citizens of Ukraine wanted"

    That, in fact, is the wish of the citizens on the Maidan in 2014. I will translate what is written on the poster - "I am a girl! I don't want CU (Customs Union), I want lace panties and EU"
     

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  20. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh then when Vladimir Putin said:

    "...You cannot impose political standards of behavior on other countries and people while ignoring their special nature which includes the ethnic and religious structure and historical traditions..."
    It means he wants to IMPOSE political standards of behaviour. I guess I have a reading comprehension problem. I would never have guessed it. Thanks for setting us all straight.



    When Satan Reigns
    [​IMG]
    Whatever's false they'll say it's true
    and throw the lies back onto you.

    And what is right they'll say it's wrong.
    Then woe to all, it won't be long.

    When everyone will wear a frown.
    For what is 'up', they'll call it 'down'.

    Then try to make the day a night
    so dark can reign, without the light.

    - Jeannette
     
  21. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    No.
    It mean he intends to, or he thinks it is a normal thing to do.

    as in "you cannot play football without understanding how a team works".

    You guessed it.
     
  22. Jughashvili

    Jughashvili Newly Registered

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    Leaks of the text of the US response to Russia have already begun. And they started in America, and it was the White House that asked us not to publish the text of the answer:
    "The United States and Poland offered to exchange commissions for missile defense facilities owned by the United States in Poland and Romania, and Russian in Kaliningrad."
    It seems to me that this will not reduce the threat from NATO to Russia in any way. Just an attempt to get away from the topic, as well as hysteria about the fictional threat of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Published in the Wall Street Journal
     
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  23. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I found the best way to know what our State Department is doing, is by what they accuse others of. So what we have here is a legitimate fear by Russia of Ukraine becoming part of Nato - something that would constitute an existential threat to Russia.

    So to establish peace and security in the region before building up an equal force along the Nato countries as well as the US, Moscow gave them a plan on how to reduce tensions.

    And so what was the response from our embedded sociopaths? Well, it was as one would expect. Our' propaganda networks began blasting away that Russia's wants to invade Ukraine, that way we could supply them with more weapons. It doesn't seem like it's Russia that's beating the war drums.

    [​IMG]

    My fervor is all over
    from China to the Middle Sea.
    I'm here and there and everywhere
    as you can surely see.

    For chaos is my middle name,

    and which I'm proud to say,
    to those who aren't in the know
    it's called our American way.
    - Jeannette
     
  24. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, then saying that one shouldn't impose something, really means that they intend to do it and that it's normal to do it?

    [​IMG]
    Thank's for clarifying it for me.
     
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  25. GlobalCitizen

    GlobalCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure there is no way to undermine sovereignty buy cutting off exports?
     

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