New engines - possible?

Discussion in 'Science' started by Brett Nortje, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. Brett Nortje

    Brett Nortje Well-Known Member

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    The way combustion engines work is that they use pressure to move parts. the way the electric engine works is that it uses electromagnetism to push parts. seems it is all about pushing parts, yes? is there yet another way to 'push parts?'

    How about a hydro electric dam? this would be where the water pushes the huge turbines to generate power - more pushing, no doubt? if we were to get an oscillator to begin hitting a part in the hydro electric dam, it could hit the dam wall and generate the turbines to start processing the flow of water so that parts turn, yes? so, with the oscillator hitting the dam wall, or, even a gunpowder ignition, we could release 'iced up' water to produce power, of course. we will also need to have the 'fluids' circulate the engine, powering the turbine, in a continuous flow. this might be possible with a mechanism my dad taught me with a hose - you suck on the open side and the water continuously flows through the mechanism, yes?

    ~ I am tired of trying to reintroduce 'my oscillator idea,' maybe that will be useful later?

    So, the ignition will be for the person to turn the key to create a suction effect on the parts with the water in them, and, it will be continuously flowing, not very fast, but turning things like wheels. maybe this will be ideal for the urban crawl each day?
     
  2. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get the energy to do the suction? Where do you get energy to replace the energy used when the car goes forward? How does the water keep flowing in your engine?
     
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  3. Brett Nortje

    Brett Nortje Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever sucked on the open side of the hose with say a pond lying below that level? the water is continuously sucked up until it is empty for some reason. the 'flow of water' will continue through the engine turning the turbines to provide friction of a sort.
     
  4. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Parasitic weight. All the water you would need to move the car would also have to move the weight of the water as well. And you'd need a lot more water than you need in fuel.

    Case in point, my car holds 12 gallons of fuel and can go about 400 miles (combined city and highway miles).

    If you were using the water to run a turbine, in order to get enough of a flow to generate enough energy...you're looking at a flow rate of at least 6 gallons per minute. For my car to go 400 miles, it'll take about 6.6 hours (at 60 mph) to burn through all the fuel.

    Let's play along with the notion that you could move a car with a minimum of 6 gallons per minute. You'd need to carry about 66 gallons of water. That's going to be about 550 pounds of extra weight and that's not counting the extra weight of the car itself that would be needed to hold 66 gallons of water.

    My car is only holding 75 pounds of fuel to get the same distance. Mine is therefore more efficient.

    It would be better to go with an electric car or better still...a hydrogen fuel cell which can go 100 miles per gallon of liquid hydrogen. Which weighs 0.2 pounds per gallon and you'd only need 4 gallons.
     
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  5. primate

    primate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is the pressure of the water column and gravity or its potential energy that forces the water thru the turbines. There is no need to 'suck' anything.
     
  6. Brett Nortje

    Brett Nortje Well-Known Member

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    Good points. but, did you know how vastly inferior the rifle was in the cowboys and indians? i think this engine of mine could be refined over time, of course.
     
  7. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    No...no it could not. 6 gallons per minute is just the pressure coming out of a garden hose that's 100 feet long. I used that as a baseline and a hypothetical number.

    6GPM is not going to spin a turbine fast enough to either move the car via gearing nor is going to spin a turbine fast enough to generate the electricity needed to drive electric motors that can propel the car.

    The very best you could hope to achieve is basically producing a car that while interesting...would not be able to compete with the new electrics or the fuel cell cars.

    It would literally be like bring out a wood-fired, steam powered vehicle and expect it to compete with a 2017 Mustang.
     
  8. Otern

    Otern Active Member

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    So, for your idea to work, you basically need two water tanks. One above the other, and some turbine between them. Water runs through the turbine, and it all ends up in the lower tank. How are you going to get the water from the lower tank, back to the upper tank, without using more energy?

    Perpetual motion machines does not work. Your idea is stupid.
     
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  9. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Either that or he's spilling the water out on the road behind him which is both a waste of water and a potential hazard for the drivers behind him.

    Better options would be...

    1. Electric Cars - Currently being developed and refined. One (Tesla Model S) recently went as far as 900km (559 miles) on a single charge.
    2. Hydrogen Fuel Cells - Clean, combines atmospheric oxygen and hydrogen to produce electricity, only has warm water as an exhaust product, and can go (last time I checked) 25 miles per liter or about 94 miles per gallon of hydrogen.
    3. Gas Turbine Hybrid - Uses almost any sort of fuel, internal combustion in the turbines only runs the generator for the electric motors. Ultra low emmissions, high range

    His idea is highly inefficient at best, impossible perpetual motion at worst.
     
  10. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I seem to remember a turbine car was attempted but had a problem with "heat".
    Hot Hot Hot

    The article here says costs.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  11. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but it was trying to run the vehicle using the turbine much like a helicopter will use the turbines to power the rotor.

    The turbine in this case is a much smaller one that is running a generator. Less heat to worry about since it really didn't need to put out as much HP to run the system as the Turbine Cars that they were cranking out.

    The only real drawback to the design that killed it was that it wasn't really an improvement over the V8 Engines of the time which were FAR cheaper to make.
     
  12. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Turbine by their nature of external combustion vs a cylinder's internal combustion is going to be heat problematic regardless of size. Although the cost of parts with the precision required probably came down greatly since the Chrysler attempt.

    Why not a Nuclear/Electric iddy biddy Thorium based system?
    http://www.collective-evolution.com...-could-run-100-years-on-just-8-grams-of-fuel/
    This Car Runs For 100 Years Without Refuelling – The Thorium Car
    No "KABOOM" Guaranteed :lol: Less so for your car or cellphone lithium battery.


    Moi :oldman:

    r > g



    TaxCanada.jpg
    Make :flagcanada: Pay Its' Fair Share!
     
  13. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Why would I want an engine that needs lead shielding to keep my nards from glowing in the dark? Or a car that if I got into a collision with some drunken schmuck needs the EPA and the NRC coming out to contain the environmental damage?

    Why not an electric car that already can go over 550 miles on a single charge? Why not use a hydrogen fuel cell that gets 25 miles per liter (3.9 liters per gallon so 90-ish miles per gallon)? Why not use new IC Engine technologies that allow for never seen before fuel economy? Why not use these technologies that already exist today or are a mere few years from full development?
     
  14. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ABT

    Anything But a Turbine ;)
     
  15. Otern

    Otern Active Member

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    You're aware that thorium reactors also use turbines, right?
     
  16. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It ain't the turbine I mind as much as the external combustion.

    Isn't there a more direct Nuclear to Electricity system?
    No steam or mechanics.
    More like a fuel cell. Like electricity happens.
    Help me out, please. Really.



    By the way, way back someone said they don't want themselves exposed to radiation.
    How many think about that when it comes to EMF? Electric & Hybrid cars and one is inches from an EMF generator with no thought by anyone. No milligause standards.
    In my research Tesla is the only one that took it into consideration with extra shielding in the back seat area where children ride. One reason I prefer my internal combustion engines over electricity drive.

    And regardless of assurances, I would like to see a physical comparison between
    Hydrogen Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Internal Combustion.

    Moi :blahblah:
     
  17. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let's combine a turbine with a flywheel!
     
  18. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Well first of all...as you've said people have been [smurf]ing around with electricity since ancient times. Secondly we're surrounded by EMF emitters in our houses and our places of business on a daily basis. Your house is wired with it, your TV puts it out, your WiFi...your phone (yes even a land line outs out a low level field), your computer, the computer monitor, the fact that you're surrounded by power lines and cellular communication frequencies, your microwave, even an old fashioned electrical stove can throw out enough of a signal to scramble 100-base networking cable signals. And third? EMF radiation is debated with the general consensus being minimal to no risk. Ionizing radiation from radioactive fuels are a known and verified danger. The process of refining it into usable fuel converts some of the Thorium into U-232 which is very high on the "This [excrement] will kill ya" list. Not to mention there is the fact that once the fuel is spent...we have to find a safe way to store the useless but still dangerously radioactive waste for the next umptyscrunch billion years (half life of Thorium is 14 billion years)

    And finally Hydrogen IC vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell? Any Hydrogen Internal Combustion is going to produce far more waste heat energy than kinetic energy to the wheels. As of now we have a 38% efficiency with the rest bled off as waste heat. That's 8% better than Gasoline or Diesel IC. At maximum theoretical thermal efficiency...best we can hope for is 58% and again that's in theory. Hydrogen Fuel Cell has a 40-60% thermal efficiency with a theoretical maximum of 83%

    Simpler, more efficient, less moving parts.
     
  19. primate

    primate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I use the Force.
     
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  20. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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  21. Grumblenuts

    Grumblenuts Well-Known Member

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    The Mike Waters turbine is much simpler, thoroughly tested, and proven to work. Plus doesn't kill birds and he's an Aussie as you appear to be, mate. Why look to Spain when you've got such talent in your own backyard?
     
  22. Grumblenuts

    Grumblenuts Well-Known Member

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    So you disapprove of the Sun?
    Most IC engines have unshielded alternators to recharge the starter battery and power your lights/mobile entertainment center/iphone charging station.
    Tesla (the man) understood that open systems (like wind/solar/hydroelectric electricity generation and the refrigeration cycle) were vastly superior to anything the closed (system) minded would ever produce. It just takes brilliant minds to translate the concept into the reality.
     
  23. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    It is not nice to call somebodies idea stupid when their aim is to help out some way in the world. You may deem his idea to be not realistic for obvious reasons and explain why his idea will not work, but It is rude to say it is a stupid idea because sometimes stupid sounding things can end up true.
    To say perpetual machines do not work is a statement based on time this far, there is nothing that says in the future we might not develop this technology. We have put man on the moon and lots of other things we were suppose to not able to achieve, so do not assume perpetual motion can never exist.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
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  24. Grumblenuts

    Grumblenuts Well-Known Member

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    The Moon orbiting the Earth is the perpetual motion machine powering our tides.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  25. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    The earth spinning is perpetual , the earth orbiting the sun is perpetual, I have done a rough sketch of Brets idea , my interpretation from Oterns interpretation.

    water pump.jpg

    Good idea Bret, you would just have to top up the water occasionally because of evaporation, it might run some low wattage stuff or charge a battery. Not quite perpetual though, because you would have to add water now and again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017

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