No more social security.

Discussion in 'Social Security' started by RadicalRevolutionary, Mar 6, 2016.

  1. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    If you do not earn enough money you can't fund your 401k!

    If you have a personal emergency and need funds they can be withdrawn and/or loaned against your 401k.

    BOTH of those COMMON occurrences result in an UNFUNDED/UNDERFUNDED 401k.
     
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then the problem isn't individual management of it, is it?

    Again, tenuous logical connection there. Why do you avoid arguments with deflects and clouding the issue?

    None of those arguments really have anything to do with trouble an individual has managing their own 401k.

    Again, back to the issue I originally pointed out to you. Do you want to respond to that or not?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  3. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Your responses above have established that it would be a complete waste of time.

    Have a nice day!
     
  4. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    That's a cultural problem. You are your family's responsibility, just as they are yours, since we're all social mammals. Our prideful refusal to operate as small collectives - as humans have done successfully for thousands of years, and still do in much of the world - is our downfall. When you 'refuse to be a burden' to one person (family), you make yourself a burden to another. The worst part of that is that you don't know the circumstances of that other person - who could be doing it much harder than the family you refuse to 'inconvenience'.

    More importantly, this isn't about irresponsibly making yourself a burden. No one should ever do that. There can be no free lunch without very good reason (great age, disability/disease, youth). When all members of the family take this responsibility seriously - as they do in cultures where it's still the norm - there are no weak links. There are no freeloaders, because people are raised in an environment where freeloading isn't one of the options.

    Personally, I would feel a failure if I had to rely on random strangers in my dotage. That's the very thing I work towards avoiding.
     
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    They should have made better choices, in that case. It can be done, especially in America .. where housing, food, and utilities are so cheap compared to the cost of living in much of the West - including my own very expensive country. And yes, it's always choices.

    And they're not 'hard working' if they've worked all their lives and have nothing to show for it. The hard work needed to avoid poverty in old age happens outside of working hours. It's in what you do with every last cent you earn. The choices you make. Every little indulgence, and every little impulsive purchase ... for your entire life.
     
  6. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Please tell me what choice I should have made that would have protected me from having my retirement account evaporate?
     
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  7. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Boring Blame-the-Victims REGURGITATION ignored for obvious reasons!
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I can't say, because I didn't live your life. And there are so many options. Investments, savings, fewer children, self-sufficiency, frugality, collectivism, entrepeneurialism, house sitting. The list is endless.
     
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Blame the individual who made poor choices throughout life, yes. Who else is to blame, if the person on a lower income spent some (or any) of that money unwisely?
     
  10. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Yes, there are many options, and all of those might be fine; however, the option I chose was to use the retirement account offered to me by my employer. At the time it seemed like a no-brainer--a great choice, but looking back now I can see what I could not have seen back in that time.

    Had I said no to the retirement plan, had I turned left instead of right on the day I applied for the job, I might have made a better choice. It's just that at the time it was a rock-solid choice. Had I forgone the children, lived in a tiny house, and put everything aside until retirement, I might be in a better position now. It's too easy to pass judgment on people and say they should have known what the future would bring.

    Now, if you want to separate out those who flat-out ignored the future and lived entirely in the moment, then you might have a point about it being their fault. Way too many of us made what were the right choices, but they turned out to be bad news.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You make a fair point, in regards to the difference between 'acts of god' and poor choices. Such situations would be a statistical exception, though. At the end of the day, it's always wise to set up one's life in such a way that external sources of income (pensions, retirement plans, investments, etc) are varied, or you're very bloody wealthy. We have our own money in a variety of forms .. property, shares, retirement plans, savings, etc. It means that if one falls over, it would only impact a small percentage of the total. Worth adding that we're only in this position today because we started future planning in our twenties. Neither of us have ever earned mega-bucks, or were born to money. We're just really really good at ruthless frugality :p
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  12. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    So being born into poverty is a "choice"?

    Being laid off is a "choice"?

    Getting sick is a "choice"?

    Those are the "choices" that you are BLAMING them for making?

    Sad!
     
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  13. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    :applause:

    The fallacy of "poor choices" is just an excuse to get away with ripping off hardworking Americans like yourself.

    I made the decision to invest for my daughter's college education with a well known insurance company that would yield enough to pay for all of it. I regularly paid the premiums and was never late once. Twenty years later when it came to use the funds they told me that there had been some "wrongdoing" with those policies and that they would only give me my money back without any interest. They had never even bothered to notify me and give me an alternative. WTF?

    But according to @crank I made a "poor choice" because I had failed to use a crystal ball and predict that a well known insurance company would issue fraudulent college savings polices.
     
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  14. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I'll say one thing, "accidental death" policies are a big rip off.
     
  15. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The entire insurance industry has become a ripoff across every area of coverage.
     
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  16. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Just got hit with a 90$ overdraft (plus the 30$ fee) for a policy they said my other half had since Aug 2017 (same month she had a stroke and was in the hospital, all month) Say they take out 90$ every 3 months, i never saw it. Went to the bank and got our overdraft refunded and a stop order put on them. This, right after our dog had a 265$ vet bill, out of the blue, on Nov. 5th...when it rains, it pours.
     
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  17. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    These scammers prey on people when they are distracted by serious issues like caring for a loved one. It is utterly iniquitous.

    Hopefully your wife and your dog are recovering.
     
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  18. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    They are both doing well, she lost most left vision and use of that arm, but everything considered (many issues since then) she is well and the dog (the child we never had) are both doing well. Thanks and I hope things are well, for you and yours, as well. IMG_20191020_004714.jpg
     
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  19. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Dang! I'm really sorry to hear about all that, FatBack.
    I ran into an overdraft issue years ago when I forgot about adding a payment into my budget when I switched it to online payment. I had my pay direct deposited and my payments taken out automatically (wasn't paying attention). The payment couldn't be withdrawn because it was a little over a dollar short, so they hit me with an overdraft fee for each day. I only got paid once a month, so I had no way to pay it, nor did I even realize it until I got a Nasty Gram in the mail from the bank. Thankfully, it was a small, local bank and they were more than willing to work with me.
    Glad to hear your wife and "baby" are doing ok now. I just wish there was a way to make it rain money.
     
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  20. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    I do believe that she was thinking of those who intentionally ignored their future and actually did make poor choices rather than those of us who got spit on by the financial industry. It's just that I think there are many more of us.
     
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  21. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    We got it worked out and the $ came on early. We get by OK but not much trim fat to cover unexpected expenses. We have friends and family that can help but I dont like leaning on them unless we absolutely must. 99% of the time we do fine. Thanks.
     
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  22. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about those kinds of choices, and I'm pretty sure you know that. We've made plenty of those ourselves .. buying dud shares, properties which ended up being a loss, etc etc. These are the ordinary vagaries and risks of the market place.

    When I say poor choices I'm talking (as you know) about how we live our lives day to day. Every little decision to indulge some treat or luxury we can ill afford.
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    As for anything we freely purchase, caveat emptor is the order of the day. Business does what business does ... sees a market and exploits it.
     
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  24. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, and yes I was.
     
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  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    So don't buy any. We have barely any (a couple of buildings insured, and that's it). There's no way on earth we'd spend the $10k per year it would cost us to insure everything. In ten years that saving can buy a cheap property to rent out for income in retirement. Choices.
     

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