Non binary and that sort of thing.

.

 

Instead of debating it, the question I want to ask you is..."Why does it matter?"

What does it matter that someone believes that they're non-binary? What impact on your lifestyle is there just because someone feels that they're neither one or the other? Does their being NB somehow make your gender any less valid?

I don't understand a lot of the LGBTQ+ myself (largely because I'm a CIS heterosexual male and it's hard to imagine anything beyond that), but even though I may not understand it, I can certainly allow for others to be who they want to/feel the need to be because it's no skin off my nose. It doesn't impact me.

 

1) It doesn't matter. All of us harbour fantasies and ideas about ourselves, and we all understand that about each other. What does matter however (because it's accutely unreasonable and narcissistic), is when we insist that others share those fantasies.

2) CIS is a 'religious' term, with meaning only to those inside the faith. Outside of that context it's a nonsense. It's like telling an atheist they're sacriligious. Also, it DOES impact you. If you continue to cede ground to those who think self-identity is valid, you will end up with a society a hundred-fold more chaotic and destructive than the one we have now.

 

Actually my question was directed at Yant0s (the chap who started this thread. I already know your feelings on the matter given the fact that you're of the belief that if it isn't your particular flavor of Mormonism it's going to hell for eternity.

 

That was CougarBear, not Crank. I don't recall Crank pushing being Mormon.

 

Whoops! My apologies.

 

Let's try this again. Again I apologize for mistaking you with another religious person. Your arguments were strikingly similar and since I hadn't had my first cup of caffeine, I mistook the two.

And it's equally unreasonable and narcissistic that you insist that others share your fantasies. You are of the belief that gender identity is based on a part of a body that you will never see in 98% of the population.

Yes! You fantasize that men are men because of the fact that they have a dong. This is a fantasy because you do not know if they have one or not. You might look at a man and see a trouser bulge, but is it a real "Mr. Fiddles" or is it one of the "packers" that some trans men wear to further their bodily self image? Unless you're sharking random men on the street or giving them a "Crocodile Dundee" grope (either of which is creepy as [smurf] and likely to end you up on a sex offender registry)...you're not going to know. Denim isn't see-through.

Now I'll admit that it takes a lot more work and more time for a man's transition to progress to the point where they start really looking like a woman, but again the obvious indications aren't going to help you. Is that woman's breasts real? Are they fake? And either answer still does not help since men can develop breasts if hormones are shifted AND a woman can get fake breasts if she wants to have a larger set.

You saying that a person's gender is based on what they may or may not have under their clothes is a fantasy based on the fact that you are guessing based on what you can see and hear.

The problem with religion as an argument is that not everyone agrees with your interpretation of religion. While you may feel that your religion is the "Most awesome, most one truest, bestest, everyone who disagrees is going to hell-est, greatest religion in the all-time history of like ever"...

Everyone else believes that about their religions as well. Who is right? Who is wrong?

And what is wrong with self-identity? A lot of the problems in society is that we have become very self-absorbed and thinking that "I'm right, it's the rest of the world that has it wrong" I go to a lot of gaming conventions that are LGBTQ+ friendly. I run in to people who run the spectrum of "I identify to the gender that matches my wedding tackle" to "I really don't know what I am since I don't really feel like I belong to any category." and it's not that big of a deal. We have our con badges and we put on "Preferred Pronoun" stickers. I meet someone, I notice their preferred pronoun and I use it out of courtesy. I don't care what they're packing, I don't care what they feel that they are, I just use the preferred pronoun (and apologize when I muck it up since I am after all only human and prone to mistakes) and enjoy the game and the conversation.

It doesn't matter what they are or what they think they are. I just treat them with respect and courtesy just like I wish more people would do. Hell! Even if you take gender and identity out of it, there are far too numerous cases where common courtesy is sadly lacking. Do a search for "Karens" on YouTube and you'll see enough people being complete [vaginal-irrigation product] canoes to other human beings just because they couldn't produce whatever coveted item the aggressor is looking for from their rectally-mounted replicators right there and then.

 

In this case, I do believe that @crank (who is welcomed to correct me if I am wrong) was making a simile, not claiming a religion per se. He is stating that outside of those who accept transgenderism as fact, that the term "cis" has no true meaning. Basically, he(?) is putting himself in the position of the atheist, the non-believer.

 

Not really. One could make that same argument with the word "atheist", since it contains an element of the theist concept with it. All the prefix "cis" does is render without doubt as to the nature of the one referred, i.e. one whose sex and gender are not in conflict. Regardless of whether one considers it a mental illness, or agrees or disagrees with the current treatment, it is factual that there is a conflict between the body and the self, or gender, even if you do not want to necessarily use those specific labels.

Self identity run a large range. That includes religion and various sub groupings thereof. You dismissing another's self identity of gender as invalid is no different than if I were to dismiss your self identity as a Christian (assuming so only for the example, and not as a final conclusion) as invalid because you do not conform to my self identity of what a Christian is.

 

My point still stands. He said that CIS is a religious term. I've never heard it in that context but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility. The fact that he put CIS in a religious setting means that my point still stands. It may not be his religion, but whatever religion(s) use it in that context are ignoring the fact that one's religion may not have the same context and connotations as someone else's religion.

To one faith, mixing meat and dairy as well as eating pork is bad. Other faiths say "You want that Bacon Double Cheeseburger? Go for it." If some religion considers "CIS" to be a religious term, then there are others who don't.

 

Mormonism? No idea, sorry. I'm an athiest.

 

Yep, that's pretty much it. Quasi-religious terminology - which exists in all forms of ideology, especially political - is what I refer to as 'cult words'. It's essentially a private language, which isn't relevant or useful outside of context. In this case, the context is a small proportion of the small proportion of Progressives on the political Left (a very religious, non-religious proportion).

 

1) It's untreated mental illness, exacerbated by validation of symptoms.

2) This Trans stuff is LEGAL identity. But even beyond that, when we oblige others to acknowledge our own view of ourselves, we are engaging in extreme narcissism. Our social identity is always a negotiation with the world. The world will see us as it will, with only the bare minimum acknowledgement of the fixed physical reality - things like gender, race, age.

 

I did apologize and explained why I said what I said. Not that you seem to have bothered reading it.

 

You know, that's very similar to an argument I had with someone on another debate site. They claimed that any new words were quasi-religious, ideological or political "cult words".

Language does evolve. We add words as we come in contact with new ideals and concepts.

 

it isn't gender identity that people care about you can identify as an intergalactic space cat if you want. Problem is when they deny sex. When males enter female only spaces. When males compete physically with females.

Nobody wants to see a mediocre male powerlifter that pretends he's a woman dominate women it's something anybody can do.

this is false humans are sexually dimorphic in more than just their genitalia. Females don't have 5:00 shadow they typically aren't six and a half feet tall they typically don't have narrow hips and so forth there's more to sexual characteristics than just genitalia.

exceptions don't make the rule.

As It Seems today and modern English the word gender has no meaning. That's why we lean on the word sex. If this was about gender there wouldn't be the need to redefine sex.

Gender these days seems to mean a very rigid view on fashion.

depends on what you're arguing. If you're trying to see gender means one of the definitions given for it and your opponent is trying to say it means a different definition given for it. You are merely arguing semantics.

This is an argument you cannot win because we see gender used as a synonym for sex.

kind of like the meaning of the word gender. You say it has one specific meaning and everyone else who uses it to mean other things is wrong.

I will out of courtesy call trans woman she and a transmission will not refer to any single person they. If they want to pretend there's some magical unicorn gender that's their business if they need me to affirm that I don't enable that kind of thing.

I will treat them the same respecting pregnancy I treat anyone else. I don't recognize unicorn genders unicorn races. If you identify as an orc I'm not going to address you as an orc if you identify as some magical gender that isn't real I want to address you as that either just like you wouldn't address me as your majesty or your Superior if I told you those were my pronouns.

Respect is a two-way street.

 

Your identity is negotiated between yourself and society around you. Demanding everyone cater to your insisted upon identity strikes me as a bit narcissistic. As the OP says, if you want to be accepted as a woman, then make the effort to look like one.

 

Or we don't, because they're not relevant to the broader societies in which we live.

 

I'm saying it's based on BIOLOGY. There are rare instances where a man dressed as a woman will 'pass', but the vast majority don't (and most never will). In that case, the world will always see them as men - which is entirely natural and normal. We are animals, after all. We're not sophisticated incorporeal 'minds', with no biological imperatives at all.

 

1) Everything. A civil society simply can't function if we can't pin down identity. Seven billions narcissists all dictating the terms, is a chaos which doesn't bear thinking about.

2) Anyone who wears a badge/bin for anything other than their name and credentials (as a service to YOU, not to themselves), is a flaming narcissist. I would never wear a badge 'demanding' that others call me Genuis, or Great Beauty, or Funny Girl, or any particular 'feeling' I might have about myself, and I'm pretty sure that no one who is psychically healthy would wear such a badge. You're mixing with a very damaged group of people, if they think it's actually okay.

3) Exactly, it doesn't matter. It's private and personal and no one else's business.

 

As we devalue and discredit people's achievements they tend to lean on other things to be proud of. I'm willing to bet in the next couple of years the thing people identify with the most is mental illness. They're bipolar or depressed or whatever.

 

It's already hugely fashionable to be depressed.

 

Wait till it becomes an oppressed class.

 

I suspect that's why it's fashionable. That, and the benefits of being able to opt out of being a responsible grown up.

 

Well the sad part about it is that there are people who really suffer from depression and then there's people who lie about it in order to blame everyone else