Now Is The Time To Act On Russian Aggression Toward Ukraine!

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by JimfromPennsylvania, Dec 6, 2021.

  1. JimfromPennsylvania

    JimfromPennsylvania Active Member Past Donor

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    It has been reported in the Washington Post (on Dec. 3 of this year) that American intelligence is assessing the ultimate size of the Russian military force amassing on the Ukrainian border at one-hundred and seventy-five thousand troops the number is already over 100K, many people think this is an omen that the country of Russia will invade Ukraine and annex it. The world has already seen how Russian President Putin stole Ukrainian territory in Russia's military conquest of Crimea in the last ten years; the media has well reported that Vladimir Putin doesn't think of Ukraine as a sovereign country but rather as part of Mother Russia. Wisdom calls for acting like Russia's invasion of Ukraine is imminent. Now America has this segment of Americans that says we shouldn't funnel huge amounts of military equipment to the country of Ukraine to defend itself against Russian aggression because doing so will provoke Russian Vladimir Putin to attack Ukraine because he will argue that America massively arming the Ukrainian army poses a security threat to Russia because Ukraine is on Russia's border so Russia has to invade and conquer Ukraine to eliminate this military threat. The proper thinking on this issue is we're past the stage of worrying about provoking Putin his amassing 175K troops on Ukrainian border should be interpreted that he is intending to invade and conquer Ukraine.

    I am not a military expert and have no background in the military but I believe that America should be outstandingly generous in giving military equipment to Ukraine in order to help that country defend itself, be outstandingly accommodating to the Ukraine military leadership's request for assistance in this area. My reasoning is that the Ukrainian people are a good people over the last ten years with this ongoing Russian conflict America has had many contacts with the Ukrainian people and learned they are a good people that deserve their sovereign rights that being the right to their own country. Further, with the world struggling to come out of the Covid 19 pandemic with European countries trying to rebuild their economies which took a terrible hit from this disease the last thing in the world Europe needs is Russia conducting military expansionism and taking over the huge European country of Ukraine. Plus, the world doesn't need to go backwards to Cold War times with a Russian Empire in Eastern Europe America needs to make an outstanding effort to not go back to this security nightmare!

    In regards to the issue of whether or not U.S. military personnel should be utilized to defend the country of Ukraine from a military attack from Russia. Ordinarily, I would say no the country of Ukraine is the Ukrainian citizens country it is not the American citizens country American men and women should not give their life defending Ukraine sovereignty it is the Ukrainian citizens duty to make this sacrifice. If America had a Treaty or Treaty like obligation to Ukraine that would be a different story, obviously Ukraine isn't in the Nato alliance so there is no Nato Treaty obligation; there is a matter of an agreement between America in conjunction with a whole bunch of other countries and the country of Ukraine to get Ukraine to disarm all nuclear weapons after the Cold War ended, I don't know the details of that agreement so I have no comment on that issue. But I do think that at the present time the times are extraordinary which does warrant America getting involved in a military conflict related to Russia invading Ukraine albeit in a limited manner. The reasoning goes like this if Russia invades and conquers Ukraine that is going to create a gigantic tidal wave of refugees flooding into Europe, the refugee numbers will range in the hundreds of thousands if not millions not only will this cause grave economic hardship on European countries but this will cause division between these countries (because some countries will not take these refugees or as many that need to be taken) likely so severe that it could threaten the NATO military alliance this cannot be allowed to happen America needs NATO to exist and be a strong and reliable alliance, no other option can be tolerated, so America must act on this Russia invasion matter to protect and preserve the NATO alliance. Specifically what is meant here is not deploying U.S. ground troops on Ukrainian soil what is meant here is if the Russian military invades Ukraine, U.S. air power will be used to slow, weaken and hopefully stop the invasion. U.S. air planes should be used to bomb the advancing Russian tank and troop columns; the Ukrainian military is at least a respectable modern military (they've comported themselves well in the fighting on the Eastern Ukraine border against the Russian proxies over the last eight years) with U.S. air power assistance they should be able to at least stop any Russian military invasion if not repel it out of the country of Ukraine!
     
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Other than sanctions, there is nothing to do.

    There are no defense treaties with the Ukraine, they do not belong to any of the defense organizations or other multinational organizations other than GUAM. They made the decision 30 years ago to remain neutral and independent. And that is a two-edged sword. You are not likely to get pulled into the fights of others. But at the same time, nobody has any obligation to assist you.

    They have had 30 years to get off the fence, that is all on them.

    And giving them equipment would be rather pointless. They actually have a lot of top of the line Soviet era equipment, including T-80 and T-72 tanks. But in the last decade they have cut over 100,000 personnel from their Army, and their tank forces are 1/3 of what they were a decade ago. And you can not just send them tanks, it takes months to train them how to use them. But they already have over 6 division worth of tanks sitting in storage.

    And as for US military involvement, hell no. They had 3 decades to form alliances, that was all on them. Yes it sucks that Russia is ripping off chunks, but that was their decision and now they are going to have to deal with it. I have no problem if we want to train some of their forces, but not one US servicemember should step foot or fly over the Ukraine. Maybe if they had joined any organization dedicated to member defense (NATO, EU, CIS, damned near anybody) that would be different. They obligated themselves to defending nobody, therefore nobody is obligated to defend them.
     
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  3. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Let NATO handle it.

    The US does not need to globetrot playing military policeman to the world
     
  4. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    The Ukraine is not a member of NATO.
     
  5. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Well let some other Nation handle it.

    Why should it be our business?
     
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Russia just wants the part of Ukraine that is pro-Russia. I say let em go in and take it so long as they split it off from the part that is anti-Russia, and that part can stay Ukraine. Problem solved. Its not worth a war to try to stop the anti-Russia Ukrainians from trying to stop the pro-Russia Ukrainians from joining Russia.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2021
  7. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @JimfromPennsylvania

    It is one thing use our air power against an enemy like ISIS or the taliban. Those enemies have no radar systems, no ground-air missiles, and no air power of their own. We can use air power against enemies like that with almost no risk whatsoever. That is not the case with Russia. Russia possesses sophisticated ground-air missile systems and fighter jets with sophisticated air-air missiles. Those capabilities would be put into use by Russia if the U.S. decided to support Ukraine with air power like you suggested. This would result in losses to both sides. We would be killing Russians on the ground from the air. We would probably shoot down some of their fighters, and they would shoot down some of ours. We might even be tempted to attack Russian anti-aircraft missile defense systems located on Russian soil near the border with Ukraine. If our air power was being launched from a naval carrier group, that would make that aircraft carrier a legitimate target for Russian submarines.

    So, you see, using our air power is not as simple and clean as it is against some primitive third-world ground force like ISIS or the taliban. We could incur some very heavy losses. And if we did, we would be forced to do one of two things: Quit with our tail between our legs, or escalate the level of warfare against Russia, one of the nuclear powers in the world.

    No thank you.

    Oh, and by the way .... In a military conflict with Russia, don't expect any support from European countries. We would be on our own.

    And another thing ...

    I don't want Joe Biden or Gen. Milley conducting any wars, much less a war against Russia. I have zero confidence in either one of them.

    I don't mind supporting Ukraine with military equipment. But that's it.
     
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  8. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The choice is go to war or let other countries sort things out.
     
  9. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ Meanwhile China is plotting to destroy the west ...
     
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Where did I say it was our business, or that we should handle it? I said the opposite in fact.
     
  11. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    We have already sent JAVELIN anti-tank systems to the Ukraine and hundreds of US military personnel with them to provide training and logistics support. Just last month (November 2021) we sent the 52d Infantry Brigade Combat Team (typically 3,300 personnel) to the Ukraine. Buckle up.
     
  12. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    The U.S. IS NATO, effectively.
     
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  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And the Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Therefore, not their concern either.
     
  14. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, you are absolutely correct.
     
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  15. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully you're not talking about the U.S. government or military "intelligence". They are morons.
    No. Biden has openly given Putin permission to do a minor incursion. Putin doesn't want to have to pay for his buffer state, just destabilize it.
    Is this some brain-dead stripper you met who calls herself Wisdom?
    I have no problems with selling weapons. In fact, sell all the stuff. Don't put limits. The only thing is that they need to buy it - not have it given to them. I know some take the insane extreme viewpoint, but I don't.
    Ever heard of the REFORGER exercises. Massing troops can just be massing troops. I don't think our intelligence services know anything.
    You end up giving people what they don't need. Let them buy it. Open up the full arsenal.
    Russia and the U.S. did make a non-binding agreement to protect the sovereignty of Ukraine and it's territory in return for it giving up it's nuclear arsenal.
    Many Ukrainians have already fled. I doubt there will be a great flood of refugees because Ukrainians are the wrong skin color for bigoted Germans and other socialists.
    Just give the Ukrainians the airpower. These aren't afghani stone-age tribal people. They can handle the airplanes and air force, if we just give it to them.
     
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Which is not a Defense Treaty. In fact, the very part I highlighted shows how worthless it really is.
     
  17. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    State Department orders diplomats’ families to leave U.S. Embassy in Ukraine, citing ‘threat of Russian military action’
    The United States ordered the departure of family members of U.S. Embassy personnel serving in Kyiv on Sunday, citing the “threat of Russian military action,” the State Department said in a statement. The United States also told nonessential staff they can leave the country — a decision that underscores the growing fears in Washington of an imminent military invasion of Ukraine by Moscow as it amasses tens of thousands of Russian troops around Ukraine’s borders.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...9.vzI8b8SJ-2QxAFdPRWj_wNQ1mb5-wHskEqW7SAplkMA
     
  18. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. The more the U.S. and Russia renege on these agreements and both do nothing, the more likely countries will attempt their own nuclear programs and rogue nuclear strikes against one or another may happen. Maybe Poland is secretly developing nuclear capability right now . . . Poland nukes Russia in defense, Russia blames and nukes the U.S. and now we've got full scale nuclear war. No country will give up or stop pursuing nuclear capability if they know as soon as they do, they'll be kicked around like a dog owned by Fauci.

    Binding treaties can be less effective than binding ones - just ask the Cherokee. Non-binding ones can have effective long term effects. Stalin made a non-binding agreement to allow the European countries self determination. Roosevelt's agreement sounded silly in 1945. However, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, and Poland are now free and Russia can only complain in childish ignorance because that is what was agreed to.

    A non-binding agreement allows the U.S. latitude when it come to a response while a binding treaty would require the immediate intervention with soldiers or the breaking of the treaty. Regardless, a non-binding agreement can easily be used as a casus belli for sanctions, the selling of arms, etc.
     
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  19. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    The US can and has chosen to 'cherry pick' the types of assistance it has and might provide. In terms of material assistance defensive weapons like the anti-tank missiles and possibly MAPADS make sense as would advanced communication gear etc. That kind of thing. Stuff that makes any offensive action by Russia potentially more dangerous and complicated without representing a direct threat if there is no shooting war.

    If a war starts then the most valuable assistance NATO can provide is real time threat detection and intel. Lots of real time intel.
     
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  20. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    One cannot just send weapons. Things like the JAVELIN anti-tank weapon are complex to use. These aren't pistols or bows and arrows. Just sending them them JAVELIN's without a complete training package is like sending them scalpels and expecting them to do brain surgery. It takes the efforts of what is called a "NETT" (New Equipment Training Team) to make them effective.
     
  21. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    The "Budapest Memorandum" is a binding agreement to protect Ukraine. It was signed AS A PART OF THE LARGER NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY in exchange for Ukraine surrendering the nukes left behind in the Ukraine by the old Soviet Union. Ukraine surrendered their nukes in exchange for our commitment for defense. To say it was non-binding is ridiculous. You really think that Ukraine would surrender its nukes on a "maybe"? Really?
     
  22. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    It takes years to train air forces. Heck, it takes two full years to train an Apache pilot, and that is when you start with a guy/gal with thousands of hours of stick time to begin with.
     
  23. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Which from my understanding is what they're getting, if not from US personnel directly then other friendly nations that have purchased Javelin (and other systems) from the US. It is a matter of record that reasonable numbers of Javelin have been sent, that being the case it would be pointless to do so unless the relevant training was also provided. Same thing for any other equipment sent to Ukraine as part of an aid package Barring the most basic of equipment training and instruction has to be included, otherwise whats the point? Your just wasting money sending anything.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
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  24. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but where did I say anything about he Budapest Memorandum???
     
  25. Starcastle

    Starcastle Well-Known Member

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    A well reasoned counter to the neocon arguments.
     

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