Nuclear Deal Reached With Iran

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Jeannette, Nov 23, 2013.

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  1. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    Unfortunately for you, there is such a think as international law. Nobody is doubting Saddam was a brute, but being a brute is not sufficient enough to warrant an invasion in this case. What was required was a second resolution which wasn't forthcoming and for a very good reason. Initiating war is a an extremely serious undertaking. The war was illegal. Get over it.
     
  2. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    What were the limitations of the authorization to use all means necessary and where were these limitation found?
     
  3. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Interesting. I have a book in front of me; 'Rogue State' by William Blum. A brilliant expose of American adventurism and global intervention.

    Will Self; 'After reading Rogue State it is impossible to hang fast to the comforting illusion that the "American Way" is some kind of enlightenment'.
    Saul Landau; 'Blum demonstrates how US policy, under the banners of freedom and human rights, has led to barbarous criminal acts, how the world's "force for peace" has acted in the most bellicose form.'

    Read it-unless you already did.
     
  4. Tommy Palven

    Tommy Palven Active Member Past Donor

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    I haven't read RogueState, but Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal, might be along these same lines.
    http://www.amazon.com/Perpetual-War...=perpertual+war+forperpetual+peace+gore+vidal
     
  5. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    Yep, it's time for a re-read. I've just finished former UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray's memoirs 'Murder In Samarkand' for the second time. Now, this is a book that just HAS to be read - a real page turner that reads like a thriller except that it's true. What Murray intimates is that the UK is not far behind the US in the rogue state stakes. His uncompromising rustling of feathers within the high echelons of the UK diplomatic establishment eventually reached the corridors of political power.

    In the book, Murray reveals that his solid ethical, widely admired and respected, albeit unorthodox, approach to his work on the ground in Uzbekistan was being deliberately and systematically undermined by his minions higher up the chain of command (at the top of which was Jack Straw), on the basis that it conflicted with US/UK strategic objectives with regards to the wider War On Terror.

    Murray revealed to his superiors within the FCO that the Karimov regime in Uzbekistan boiled political dissidents to death in boiling liquid and, among other atrocities, tied women to red hot radiators. Murray's revelations proved to be too embarrassing for the UK establishment who proceeded to go into overdrive by responding with a sustained programme of personal and professional smears, false accusations and harassment which eventually led to his dismissal.

    The book really gives the reader an insight into the mechanics of how elements within the establishment mobilize by use of a sustained campaign of vilification against what was essentially a good person with a sense of purpose and moral fibre whose intentions were nothing more criminal than wanting to do the right thing. The book really brings an insiders perspective on the events that surrounded the preamble to the war on terror and the UK's carte-blanche support to the US during the build up to the illegal attack on Iraq.

    At one point towards the end of the book, almost penniless and living on nothing more than stale toast, Murray, a man broken by the system and now unemployed, is depicted as queuing for hours on the cold, damp streets of Dublin in the pouring rain for a visa for his soon to be Uzbek wife only to be turned down by the very same organisation he had spent his life's blood tirelessly working for.

    It's a poignant but at the same time uplifting story about one man's internal battle with his conscience as much as it is about his battle with the state. At the end he nearly succumbs to suicide and as such it brought home to me how somebody like Dr David Kelly must have felt given the kind of political pressure from his masters he faced. It's an absolutely fantastic read and my favourite book of all time.
     
  6. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Thanks for that.
     
  7. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    Try 'under the banners of being attacked and complying with UNSC Resolutions.'
     
  8. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Ok Mr. Historian, tell us which of the following nations, bombed by America, attacked America first:
    Korea 1950-53
    Indonesia 1958
    Cuba 1959-61
    Guatemala 1960
    Congo 1964
    Laos 1964-73
    Vietnam 1961-73
    Cambodia 1969-70
    Guatemala 1967-69
    Grenada 1983
    Lebanon 1983/4 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
    Libya 1986
    El Salvador 1980s
    Nicaragua 1980s
    Iran 1987
    Panama 1989
    Iraq 1991
    Kuwait 1991
    Somalia 1993
    Bosnia 1994/5
    Sudan 1998
    Afghanistan 1998
    Yugoslavia 1999
    Yemen 2002 etc., etc.

    Then we have the 'accidental' bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade (sovereign Chinese territory) in 1999.
     
  9. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    Historian? Golly you need one as some of this crap is over fifty years old. List the stuff within the last generation and it tells a different tale.
     
  10. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    A huff and a puff and they all fall down. Even building 7.
    People talk, right enough, only when there isn't a grey particle capable of critical analysis you get the outcomes we now see.
    People talk of your torture chambers, your assassination squads, your genocide, the law of man broken through lies and deceit, but like your self place their heads in the sand and arse in the air.
    You may wish to be used as a woman, I'm not.
    Highlander
     
  11. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    If you think that planes laden with jet fuel smashing into buildings at high velocity is a "puff" then I don't want you coming anywhere near my birthday cake.
     
  12. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Merely making an analogy to fairy stories.

    You know, those ones that you hear daily on CNN NBC BBC etc. all those owned and operated by AIPAC.

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  13. GlobalCitizen

    GlobalCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Being a brute was not sufficient enough warrant war in your eyes, because of US actions and expenditures of our resources, prior to the invasion. Are you proposing that we should have just let Saddam run wild, or are you proposing the US should have expended its resources indefinitely in order to contain him? We got sick of doing that. I have no doubt that without US pressure on Saddam for over a decade, his actions would have warranted invasion. Why wait?
     
  14. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Where was he going to run wild? Iraq had no money to fund any external conflicts, no containing was needed.
     
  15. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    The sanctions regime from 1990-2002 amounted to one of the most successful containment policies in the modern era to such an extent that Saddam's threat to the region and further afield had - even as early as 1998/99 - been eliminated. This was confirmed by experts like Scott Ritter working on the ground at that time and later re-affirmed by Rice and Powell in 2001/2002.
     
  16. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    The fact that planes laden with jet fuel smashing into a building which was the trigger for it's (plus building 7s) subsequent collapse on 9-11 is not a fairy story.
     
  17. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Mmm....... Go on..... If it isn't a fairy story..... What is it?

    I cannot wait!

    Highlander
     
  18. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    Reality, something that's clearly hard for you to accept.
     
  19. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Sorry my friend, I don't live in the twilight zone, reality is honouring those that died with finding out the truth.

    Not eating the keich being forced down ones throat.

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  20. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

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    Rersolution 678 gave the ultimatum to retreat until Jan 15th, he did'nt and the attack started on Jan 17th, only after Saddam relaized he is about to be defeated he asked for a cease fire on Feb 22, more then a Month after the ultimatum.

    The US and allies had every right to pursue their war plans, THEIR goals, not the tyrant's goals, in my opinion Kuwait and KSA also had every right to ask the removal of the tyrant from thier side and the allies acted of that behalf + their own goals, the tyrant had his chance in resulotion 678.

    It could be argued if it was the best course of action but nothing "illegal" here IMO....
     
  21. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    Erm, so you are denying what you saw with your own eyes, or do you think those planes were holograms or something? Alternatively, the controlled explosives (LOL) were coincided to detonate just as the planes struck, is that it?
     
  22. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    Absolute nonsense, as I have shown.
     
  23. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    It could be argued that if the invasion of Iraq occurred in 1991 then it wont have been illegal due to resolution 678. However, the invasion happened 12 years later which was illegal as Iraq was no longer in Kuwait. Kuwait and KSA had no legal right to have Saddam moved. Another illegal act carried out by the west 12 years later.
     
  24. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

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    I thought the topic was the first invasion, if it was the second then Im sorry :ashamed:

    It doesnt apply for the 2nd war, "Temporary insanity" after 9/11 is the best excuse IMO.
     
  25. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    The authority to use all necessary means as dictated in 678 was still in effect in 1441 as 1441 refers to 678 and even recalls that condition as being such. 678 states this authority is in effect on all relevant and subsequent resolutions and 1441 states 678 is a relevant resolutions as well thereby ensuring mistaken people don't think the two are not working together.
     
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