OK Atheists.......prove god doesn't exist

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Daggdag, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am NOT assuming the existence of gods, CJ.

    I am asserting the POSSIBILITY that gods exist...and the POSSIBILITY that there are no gods.

    If you disagree with me...you are saying that it is not POSSIBLE that gods exist (or that it is not possible there are no gods)...and YOU incur the burden of proof for that.

    All I am saying is that it is POSSIBLE one way or the other.
     
  2. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    You can also "prove a negative" in theology. But not in the natural world. You cannot prove the "non-existence" of something. And it's absurd to demand such proof.

    As I said before: it is possible to prove the existence of god, by just showing him. How can you show a no-god?

    But you went for the lesser of my points.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  3. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say "The existence of God is not as "unbelievable" as Santa or the Easter Bunny. "
    A lot of people believe in the "existence of God". So what.




    There was a small island in the Pacific where a plane crashed back during WWII (if I recall). The islanders began to worship the crashed plane as a god. No matter how you stretch it, "advanced technology" is not a god. Perhaps you mis-remembered Arthur C. Clarke's "3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

    Instead of making up our own definitions of gods, let's just go with
    God
    ɡäd/
    noun
    1. 1.
      (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
      Synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More2.
    2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
      "a moon god"
      synonyms: deity, goddess, divine being, celestial being, divinity, immortal, avatar
      "sacrifices to appease the gods"
    All are the creations of man's imaginings.
     
  4. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    I misinterpreted your response to MVictorP.
     
  5. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    If I may reword your comment slightly...
    I think I have a better question which is why should would humanity spend prodigious amount of money, hours of time and raw resources on deities...?
    Because we are a species that believes in the supernatural. I'd like to think that in another 100,000 years we'll get over it. But, I doubt it.
     
  6. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    In the Standard Big Bang Theory, nothing created the Big Bang. In M-theory, the Big Bang is the result of interaction of other universes. In Hawking's model, the universe didn't "begin"... it just is, and the Big Bang is only the beginning of time.

    You won't find any proof (or disproof, for that matter) of god in Science. The existence or non-existence of god is just a question that science does not address.

    So it would be wise to stay away from Science in this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  7. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Are you familiar with Aristotle's works? He worked on categorizing nature. He sent people all over Europe gathering samples of different types of plants and animals and brought them back to his facility.

    Aristotle categorized everything he could find. A human for example is a human because of all the concrete similarities between all humans that enable us to fit in one definition.

    Humans walk on two legs, we have opposable thumbs, we have a higher intelligence etc. We form our own category because we have these similar features.

    When I try to categorize "gods" I am stuck because of the pantheist definition. If we leave that out what are the common features that all Gods share that makes them uniquely "gods"?
     
  8. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    You made a comment in post # 245
    I noted it in my post # 251
    FA responed as expected in his # 264
    ...and away we go!
     
  9. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    The discussion went on from there - ad nauseum.

    I'm more than happy to let someone else continue it.
     
    William Rea likes this.
  10. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Against my better judgement...
    Frank, I thought you didn't do believing. Is that why you are now putting it in quotes?

    Do you really think that changes anything?​
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  11. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    That's true, but scientists would investigate any actual physical effects that a god may have caused. I believe there have been attempts to prove whether prayer actually works, and the Turin Shroud was carbon dated. There may be other examples. To the extent that claims made by religion were shown to be false, science could influence people's thinking about the existence of a god. But as you say, that would not influence this discussion.
     
  12. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am NOT trying to find proof of god in science. I am of the opinion that there is no way to prove gods exist...or prove gods do not exist using logic, reason, or science.

    I have no idea if gods exist or not.

    I am having discussions with people who, for whatever reason, seem to NEED to blindly guess that gods exist...or that no gods exist.
     
  13. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then stop looking for a definition. It is not actually needed.

    The question can just as easily be phrased: Is it possible there are things about the true nature of the REALITY of existence that are unknown to humans?

    If you come up with "YES" (any you should)...you can stop there. Nothing can be ruled "has to be."

    Gods could exist; there could be no gods...would be an example.
     
  14. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't blame you, Ecco. You did not fare very well in that conversation with "Joe."

    He's not here for now...and asked me to take up the cause if you want to pursue it.
     
  15. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Then your mention of the Big Bang was irrelevant.

    Is there any way to have a belief in the existence or non-existence of god or gods other than blindly guessing?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  16. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do not do "believing."

    That is what I said in the post you quoted, right?

    I DO NOT "BELIEVE."

    I put the word "believe" in quotes as often as possible, because in these kinds of conversations about the possible existence of gods...a "belief" is nothing more than a blind guess in disguise.
     
  17. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It was not irrelevant.



    Not that I can think of.

    As I have said many, many, many times here and in other forums...in a discussion about the REALITY...about the possible existence of gods...the words "believe" and "belief" are nothing more than disguises for "blind guess."
     
  18. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

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    We'd have to agree that our perceptions of moral authority and the nature of the universe reside first in our imaginations. What we're talking about here is that if I observe appearance of say, a mountain and I turn to my buddy and ask "do you see what I see?" and he says "you mean that mountain?", that's when I conclude that there's something outside of my imagination there that really looks a lot like a mountain. This understanding will not be set aside when some short kid says "all I can see from here is the tall grass in my face.".

    Most human beings have no problem seeing agreeing that we must enjoy, serve, and obey a creator of the universe who is the source of moral authority.

    Are we together w/ these facts?
     
  19. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Now...if you can logically conclude that there actually is someone else there confirming what you see...and that the "someone else" is not an illusion...then you would be home free!

    Tough thing to do, though.
     
  20. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ok, let me rephrase the question. Is there any way, other than "bling guessing" (= "belief") to address the existence or non-existence of a god or gods?
     
  21. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah! Definitely.

    Each of us can simply acknowledge that we do not know if gods exist or not...that there is no logical way to determine which is more likely...and that we may never know the answer to that question.

    We can simply say what I regularly say:

    I do not know if gods exist or not;
    I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
    I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
    I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

    ...so I don't.

     
  22. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    That was not my question. So let me put it this way.

    Do you believe that a god or gods exist?
     
  23. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

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    Correct me if I err but my guess is that we agree on the facts that I listed above.

    If you don't agree and you're just spitting snarky come-backs we'll need to give it a rest right now. That's been my typical experience with the ultra orthodox dogmatic atheist as it may well be yours w/ the ultra orthodox dogmatic theist. Neither of us gains anything w/ interacting w/ ultra orthodox dogma because it usually ends up w/ somebody's karma running over the other guy's dogma.

    So where are we really --my impression is that if you say--
    --it means your belief system assumes that there is neither any supernatural being outside the observable cosmos nor is there any need to consider the nature of such, and you wish to raise us up. My interest here is the sharing of do-you-see-what-I-see type info w/ reasonable people. If this were as simple as the analogy mentioned above w/ the short kid in the grass then I'd just raise you up, but my guess is that this not that simple. Also, that I'd bet you are in fact seeing different things than I'm seeing and you're seeing important things I want to see too. You don't seem to care about what I see but that's your choice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  24. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is not necessary for me to "prove" something you are asserting. That burden falls on you.

    By now you should be able to understand that the burden of proof falls on the individual making the assertion. We've gone over that several times.
     
  25. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It most assuredly WAS your question. And my answer was to that question.

    Okay...second revision.

    I do not do "believing."

    I do not "believe" there are gods.
    I do not "believe" there are no gods.

    And if you are going to revise your question for a third time and ask if I guess there are gods or if I guess there are no gods...

    ...I have already answered that in my previous post.

    I do not guess in either direction.

    I can guess, if for some reason you want me to guess. Let me know. I will toss a coin and make a guess based on the coin toss.
     

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