OK....your DEAD....now what?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by AboveAlpha, Jul 4, 2015.

  1. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    The problem w/ that thought is that what you consider, "logical," need not match what GOD considers logical. And, because He's god, no matter how artful your arguments, HE WINS. There's a renowned philosopher named Schopenhauer who tried for most of his life to understand the mind of God. He ultimately determined that God is utterly capricious, then he went insane (Schopenhauer, not God...so far as I know).
     
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  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The whole thing can be confusing but I believe from what I have been reading and hearing from near death experiencers that even by the year 2022..... it will be amazing how much more understandable the whole thing will be. Indictments are coming over the next six months that will begin to make sense out of how deceived all of us have been through the owners of big media.

    In the past... astonishingly selfish people were in government for forty seven years and lived to be very old... whereas some of the greatest opponents of evil.... died young.... but that is going to be turned around over the coming years and decades.




    Heaven On Earth - Kevin Zadai
     
  3. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But how is...."fabricating a conceptualization, worth it's weight in gold"?
     
  4. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Who's to say that souls, themselves, haven't been recycled from prior souls?
     
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  5. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I believe in reincarnation, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
     
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  6. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Because it sounds like you have a strong interest in plumbing this phenomenon, I'll pass along the claim of a book that, despite its provocative tease, I never got around to checking out. It was a study of people's stories of near-death experiences that proposed that many people CHANGE their stories to conform w/ what others expect; that is, when asked immediately upon their return to consciousness, about half of people's stories are not about meeting the souls of their departed relatives in some blissful state of union w/ the Divine, but of the agonizing torments of HELL.
    Given a little time for considering how their reports would be received by their listeners, these people will, instead, choose to evoke the comforting images we're all familiar with, in other words, LIE about their experience, rather than frighten their loved ones, or give others the impression that they must be an evil person, worthy of eternal punishment.
     
  7. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    In about 20 years of NDE research, I've read of only one person who said they went literally to Hell, complete with fire & brimstone. But I have read of several who went to dark or extremely negative places before they were rescued & taken to a nicer place or returned to their bodies here. Researchers say about 15% of all NDEs start in a negative environment, but most end up being overwhelmingly positive. I've never encountered any NDEs that came back saying they felt they'd been judged & threatened with the Hell you refer to. The really good news is that NDEs don't appear to support the belief that we're all doomed to be judged & punished that way. NDEs seem to provide evidence of the exact opposite. I've met & talked with about 40 individuals who experienced NDEs, & none of them came back with negative feelings toward their experience. All of them were profoundly changed by that experience in positive ways. Many misguided Christians seem to depend on fear & threats to get us in line with their sick beliefs about our relationship with God. Jesus never did that. NDErs don't do that either. I know there are hellish places, here & in the afterlife, but we choose to place ourselves there thru the choices we make in our lives. We're not forced there by God. Most of the challenges we end up facing in our lives on Earth are planned ahead of time before our birth--by us. We do that to set up situations which will hopefully force us to learn valuable lessons. We are not punished for failing to learn, but we will be allowed additional opportunities to do so later, in this life, or in another incarnation. :)
     
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  8. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Just about all cultures now and always have a concept of an afterlife and rewards and punishment. Truly, as the bible says God has written his truth on human hearts, although distorted on the details.
     
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  9. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Your contention that Jesus didn't warn about hell is simply false. From Leslie Schumacher:

    "Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:2, which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned against the absolute reality of hell."

    Christians need to tell people the bad news before we can tell them the good news of the Gospel. An NDE dream or vision does not trump the word of the Creator of the universe, Jesus Christ. If we all end up in some good place regardless of our lives here, why would He take the drastic step of dying on the cross?
     
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  10. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    If a person had a near death experience it would be because life was threatened. It would make sense because pain is a natural defense and alarm bells would be going off all over the body. It would seem like hell. Now... as it seems to me... a painkiller given to a patient could bring about euphoria and have a peaceful out look. But to know what happens at the time of passing is undetermined.
     
  11. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was a member of Jewish society & had to connect his new teachings about God with those already accepted by his peers. But his message of a loving, compassionate, forgiving God was quite different than the jealous, self-serving, wrathful, vengeful God predominating the society of his time. While we know of no writings left us by Jesus himself, we do know Jesus left instructions to his disciples to spread his teachings after his passing. While we can't prove authorship of the Gnostic Gospels found in 1945 with any certainty, it is notable that they are named for the disciples themselves, & may have been authored by them. There is strong evidence that the Gospel of Thomas probably was. But the teachings of the Gnostic Gospels differ substantially from those contained in the Holy Bible of modern Christianity. But if the Gnostic Gospels were actually written by the Disciples themselves, who knew Jesus personally, then they would reflect his teachings more accurately than those in our Holy Bible, which were mostly written by later followers who never met Jesus in person.

    Jesus' teachings in the New Testament have been distorted over time by many different editions, but many major points of his teachings closely resemble the teachings of the Vedas of India. Certainly, it appears Jesus was deeply influenced by them. I personally believe Jesus lived in India between the ages of 13 & 30. There's evidence in India supporting this possibility. Also, there is historic evidence that Jesus did teach reincarnation, but those ideas were left out of the Holy Bible by the early Catholic Church, who saw it as a threat to the authority of the Church over its members.

    NDEs are a modern source of information about the afterlife that was totally unavailable to past generations. We should feel grateful for the incredible insights they offer all of us regarding that afterlife. It is notable that NDEs show that we are spiritual beings having a temporary physical experience. That fact ties in nicely with most religious teachings. But NDEs also tell us that we each have a great deal of power & freedom in selecting the unborn body we come to Earth to live within. We choose our parents, & sometimes play a part in getting our future parents together so our bodies can be conceived. We can also be born into later pregnancies with those same parents after an abortion or miscarriage. No NDEr I've ever heard, read, or interviewed has ever said they felt they were being judged in the Astral. Reincarnation allows each of us to fix our mistakes in future incarnations, so the emphasis of each life is to learn what we can from it toward becoming more God-like souls. Of course, it's more complicated than what I mention here. :)
     
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  12. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    XploreR, what happened to your curiosity? All I did was type, "near death experiences of hell," into my address bar & google showed me a buffet of choices. Here's one link to the National Institutes of Health (NIH) website

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6173534/#__sec4title

    The article is published by the Missouri State Medical Association. It details 3 different types of negative N.D.E.s (the actual experience, not necessarily the result, afterwards): 1) Inverse-- when the same impressions that experiencers typically find positive, are experienced w/ distress, etc.; 2)Void-- what it sounds like, with some interesting examples; and 3) Hellish.

    Google also offered me another government site (ED.gov), Psychology Today, Scientific American, The Daily Beast, & so forth. If you've never heard of a negative NDE, it means you haven't looked.

    Amazon.com also came up in my search, as well as numerous You tube hits. The book on Amazon, I don't think is the one I'd heard of more than a decade ago; this one was published in 2019, by the best-selling author of 2 other books on NDEs (so you may be a fan), John J. Graden. It has also been updated w/ video links to the original interviews of the people in the book. (Only $4.99 on Kindle).

    This really makes me think you haven't done your research; the NY Times link seemed like a pretty general article, but it mentioned, of NDEs, that, "PLATO had described one in The Republic-- the Myth of Er."

    Now this is wrong, also. To insure fairness, I Bing'd it this time, but the result comported with what I had thought (I'd gotten my own copy of them when they were first published under that title): they were written from the 2nd - 4th centuries, too late to have been by any of Jesus's actual apostles. Yes, the name on the Gospel of Thomas is the same name as an apostle, but it was not an uncommon name. I'm not saying that to take anything away from it, only because if you develop fictionalized fantasies around something, it seems to me you'd be unlikely to be able to truly appreciate it for its true nature, apprehending it from still within a fantasizing state of mind.

    I was going to ask you about your information on Jesus in India, but I'm going to give you some time to shake off the influence of whatever NewAge's Witnesses got to you. I'm interested in pursuing Truth, & that can't be done w/ favoritism towards certain ideas or w/ an agenda.

    Best wishes.
    DEFinning
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  13. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your thoughtful response. I'll try to clarify my position here a bit more.
    1. In my previous post I simply said I hadn't encountered any NDE experience where anyone returned feeling they had been "Judged" by some authority or authorities in the Astral. I never said no one had negative experiences.
    2. NDE researchers claim about 15% of all NDEs involve or include negative experiences as all or part of their NDE. Most that begin negative or scary, end up being quite positive, though there are exceptions. I've only read of one experience where the dying person actually went to a Hell of fire & brimstone. Perhaps there are others I've never been exposed to, but my point here is that of the now tens of thousands of known NDEs, IF THE BIBLICAL HELL IS REAL, why have so few returned to describe such a place? I suspect it's because the Biblical descriptions are inaccurate. But I do agree there are negative locations & negative souls in dark regions of the Astral. George Ritchie's famous book, "Return From Tomorrow" describes such a place. Ritchie says he saw a large expanse filled with dark souls fighting each other ceaselessly, & all filled with hatred & anger. He said it was a place with a total lack of love, and a "Hell" worse than anything he could have imagined.
    3. I've read the account in Plato. For sure that was available to generations of interested researchers since 600 BC, but in spite of the fact that one accurate discovery can establish a whole new truth, it is seldom that the established order accepts a single example as an acceptable foundation upon which to lay an entire new teaching. The reason I said our current generation is the first to have NDEs as a reliable resource based on multiple professional studies, is because current NDEs have been around only since 1975, with the publication of Dr. Raymond Moody's famous book, "Life After Life." All modern research has been subsequent to that publication.
    4. I'm not claiming that the Gnostic Gospels were actually written by his Disciples or those closest to Jesus. But I am claiming that as a possibility. The fact that the Gnostic texts found in 1945 were written a couple of centuries after Jesus lived is not a disqualifier, since all books then were hand written &/or copied by hand. They could easily have been copies of originals that no longer existed, or were located in a different place, or were lost. I offered the thought as a possibility only--something to think about. I'm not "fantasizing" about it. From a strictly personal perspective, I really don't care one way or the other. But I feel the New Testament is a poorly assembled collection of writings designed to represent the teachings of Jesus. They are incomplete & superficial. Jesus asked his personal Disciples to continue spreading his teachings. Yet, of those 12, only three are represented in that text. In fact, most of modern Christianity is based not on the writings of Jesus' Disciples, but on those of Paul, who never knew Jesus before his crucifixion. Since I'm not a traditional Christian, I don't have the same unquestioning loyalty to the New Testament normal Christian have. But I do have a high respect & regard for Jesus & what I know of his teachings. I feel they are far closer to Vedic teachings from India than Judaism.
    5. I was personally unaware of any notion of Jesus visiting India until about seven years ago, when I watched several Youtube videos on that subject. Since I already knew Jesus' teachings closely reflected others known to be from India & based on Vedic principles, the evidences provided by those Youtube videos seemed to fit nicely together. I can't "prove" Jesus was in India, but there is evidence supporting that hypothesis, & his teachings seem too closely in parallel with Vedic teachings to simply discount the possibility. Another interesting fact I learned later was that there was a large healthy Jewish community living in India at the time Jesus lived. That community was the place where Jesus' disciple Thomas lived & taught after Jesus' death. I found it intriguing that one of Jesus' closest friends & disciples chose to go to India instead of concentrating in Palestine or some part of the Roman Empire. What connection did he have to convince him of that move--unless he was connecting to something important in Jesus' past?
     
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  14. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm only replying here to the latter half of your post, because I don't want you to get the mistaken idea that I'm one of those posters who can only disagree with, or reply w/ criticisms of, other peoples' posts. I will mention, though, that you are using the word, "disciple," differently than I understand its meaning; following Christ's teachings, even today, makes someone His, "disciple." But I understand you are referring to an early disciple of Jesus or of Christian philosophy.

    I do, also, disagree w/ your assessment that, "the New Testament is a poorly assembled collection of writings designed to represent the teachings of Jesus. They are incomplete & superficial--" & am curious if you could explain how you come about that conclusion. Though I'm not a Christian, I grew up Catholic & am still impressed by, & have respect for, the wisdom of Jesus's parables & words. In fact, only days ago I mentioned in an aside (under the thread in this forum, Ayn Rand vs. Christian Philosophy, post # 62), "...
    But, continuing on, I will grant that the etiology you propose for the gospel of Thomas, I have no reason to say couldn't be possible. Though that's not the current thinking on these writings-- by the way, I misstated in my last post that I'd got a copy of the Gnostic gospels when they'd first come out under that name, when they were then actually part of what was entitled The Nag Hammadi Library-- oftentimes there turns out to be a surprisingly colorful history, not initially predictable, behind historical developments. So, while I don't find it unbelievable that Thomas could have developed teachings, written or not, that found their way into the writings of this later sect of Dead Sea cave-dwellers, I would require sufficient proof to accept the speculation as anything more than that. So, for starters, what have you got that credibly places Thomas, the Apostle, in India after Jesus's crucifixion, which you state as a fact: "there was a large healthy Jewish community living in India at the time Jesus lived. That community was the place where Jesus' disciple Thomas lived & taught after Jesus' death?"
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
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  15. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    I am sensing that you & I approach this topic from similar directions. I'm not interested in dogmas. I am after truth. I don't pretend to know all the answers. I certainly don't. But I'm interested in truth regardless of where it takes me.

    Concerning Thomas. . . After reading your question, I went to Google & searched for "Jesus' disciple Thomas bio." Several links came up, but for simplicity's sake, I selected Wikipedia's entry & read the parts pertaining to India. I suggest you follow my example. It's a brief explanation, but covers it sufficiently enough to answer your question.
     
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  16. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I found there is, indeed, reason to propose, at any rate, Apostle Thomas having made it to India. Though it is less than certain, finding definitive proof of a person's whereabouts at such a distant time in the past is hard to come by; typically a person must be an official of significant stature for there to be even a chance of their mention in extant records. The evidence for this sojourn is only a folk-history attribution, but that counts for something.

    The article I read also cited a competing claim that the eponymous church founded by Thomas refers, instead, to Thomas of Cana, who arrived in Kerala, India, from the Mid East sometime between the 4th & 9th centuries, A.D. Also discussed was the tradition of the Apostle Thomas having landed somewhere in current-day Pakistan, & his teachings dispersing forth to India without him.

    The reason any of this would matter, of course, is your speculation that Thomas chose this destination based on a supposed trip to India by Jesus. And the hints of that possibility, you contended, reside in distinct symmetries between Jesus's teachings & those w/in the ancient Vedic texts. So here's where it gets interesting: would you be so good as to delineate some of those parallels? Or are you taking someone else's word for it?

    The above comparison of teachings would be of most interest to me, not having read the Vedic texts, or even being sure that an English translation exists (I, at one time, wanted to learn sanskrit, but I have yet to even embark on that undertaking). However, I am still curious about what I'd asked in my previous reply, for you to expound on your opinion about the New Testament being, "a poorly assembled collection of writings designed to represent the teachings of Jesus," and your judgement that they are, "incomplete & superficial." I would imagine that opinion is something that involved a good bit of thought, on your part, to develop. So here's your chance to share it. Though I don't, currently concur w/ that opinion, I'm all ears for hearing what you have to say.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  17. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    No one knows, but I will venture a guess, and the only reason I believe in it, it seems logical to me.

    Reincarnation.

    Why?

    Because we start out as something very small, millions of years ago, we graduate upward right along with genetic evolution until we reach homo sapien. But, like standing in the front of a long line which took us a long time to arrive, there are others behind us, the lesser creatures who have souls, and are sentient beings, who will also graduate to human, eventually . This would make sense to me as it doesn't seem fair that we get all the awareness goodies and lower creatures do not. So, thing is, they do, and everyone gets to be everything, over time, rich, poor, talented, untalented, handsome/beautiful, ugly, as we reincarnate enough times, and life is, actually ,fair, after all, it's just that we can't see it, as nature closes the curtain on our past lives, and it's a good thing, too. When you think of all the baggage you carry with your current ife, imagine the weight of the baggage of a thousand lives? It would crush you. Nature is wise.

    What happens after we reincarnate at homo sapien level? What is beyond us? Well, we do that for a few thousand years and we are ready to progress to the next stage, though the genetic prototype of that person hasn't arrived yet, or maybe they have, read on.....

    Maybe it will be the aliens who give us a lift, via an alien genetic tweek or two, as they gave neanderthal a lift, once upon a time, and created homo sapiens, and now they are creating alien/human hybrids with extraordinary powers of telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, etc., and they will gradually repopulate the earth, we might call them homo novis, and homo sapiens will be something in the history books.

    Well, maybe not. but, it's fun to entertain ideas. On the other hand, there is some evidence of this, though no scientist would accept it, but it comes from testimonies of thousands of persons under regressive hypnosis, who claim to have been abducted by aliens, not to mention testimonies of past lives via hypnosis, as well. I believe it, it makes sense to me.

    However, though I believe in reincarnation, I wouldn't bet my life on it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I knew a hypnotist, and, actually they don't. My sister was hypnotised and she told me she had vivid memories of being a black slave. ( we're white ). She said she remembered another life where her two kids drowned in a boating accident ( and she drowned, as well ). She remembered further back, as an ancient soldier ( she was a man in this memory ) and he was killed with a spear. The incidents retrieved under hypnosis were very traumatic, she told me. It seems logical to me that what one would remember in hypnosis is trauma, and that is what is more likely to influence your current life, than, say, eating an ice cream cone in a past life. That's why I believe in reincarnation. I can't remember anything, though. General Patton claimed to remember being a roman soldier, but he didn't claim he was anyone famous.
     
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  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wow!!!!

    Thank you immensely for this encouraging post!

    May I copy and paste it in full over here:


    What is that white guy doin in my head? (Past life regression under hypnosis).




     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do believe that you may enjoy this book:

    www.thomastwin.com/

    and especially:

    http://www.thomastwin.com/6 A Thomas background.html

    and....

    http://www.thomastwin.com/7 A Thomas samples.html

    I got the Google Books version of:


    [​IMG]

    and I absolutely loved it and read it several times already.... Truly astonishing.

     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here is how it goes -- When you get tired of hail mary's and choir songs 24/7 - (actually I was joking - such things are banned heaven - God got tired of it after the first million years) but after hanging out in heaven .. you can go on a vacation -- choose from millions of worlds - or come back to this place. The rule is though - you will not remember your past life while on vacation ..
     
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  22. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    My favorite Mark Twain is Letters from Earth.

    It fits in this thread, and deserves a much wider audience than it has gotten so far.
     
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  23. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    You might not like it, Dennis.
     
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  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was truly impressed by what he wrote about the territory of Israel - Palestine.

    If he had not made us aware of what things were like there back then we would not be able to make the comparison.


    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-1869-mark-twain-in-the-holy-land-1.5376378

     

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