On God.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by jmpet, May 6, 2013.

  1. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    Does God exist?

    Yes- this is an elegant Universe.

    No- There could be infinite Universes, this one just happens to be elegant. Anthropics.

    But if there is a multiverse, doesn't that mean there is a man behind the curtain?

    There could be a trans-dimensional being, but he arose from the Universe, he didn't create it. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

    Then where did the multiverse come from?

    It just exists.

    But what created it?

    Who created reality? Reality does not need a God to create it, it just exists. To believe in God, you need a leap of faith. To believe in science, you go by proof. And the proof is that reality exists. Just because reality exists doesn't automatically mean there's a God. If God does not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. What makes you think God exists in the first place?

    As human beings, we are clock makers. Anything we can think up, we can build a machine to do. What the machine is made of is irrelevant so long as it's result is what you're looking for.

    Yes.

    So how do you account for human thought?

    It arose from evolution... self-awareness is advantageous to self-aware beings.

    Your Big Bang theory is not an answer- it only explains what happened right after the Big Bang- God caused the Big Bang.

    Or a higher dimension or realm or brane.

    Yes, but that too was made by God.

    So you're telling me that God made a multiverse just to have people to worship Him?

    Yes. God made sentient beings so they could commune with Him. God exists.
     
  2. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But do we actually have any NEED of this hypothesis?
     
  3. Pennywise

    Pennywise Banned

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    I don't agree with much of the conjecture in the OP but do agree God is a conundrum.
     
  4. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    that was the perfect answer
     
  5. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    god is just a word to describe the unknown

    'God' never was a noun until a diety was created.:oldman:
     
  6. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    I think it's a proof of God, which makes it um... more important than the Bible.

    I have been trying to come to odds with my belief system and a suitable religion and have found none that suit me. So I resulted to logic to allow me to simply state "God exists." and go from there.

    If you guys see any faults with the argument, please bring them up.
     
  7. Prof_Sarcastic

    Prof_Sarcastic New Member

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    OK.



    The answers you provide bring 'elegance' in to it as if that's the only or deciding factor. It isn't, but I'll presume that the question you really meant to ask was "does the elegance of the universe prove god's existence?"

    That's not the only possibility if the answer is 'no'. Firstly, there's the (admittedly unlikely even in my opinion) possibility that the universe HAD to be exactly the way it is due to fundamental aspects of reality. But much more importantly, there's the answer of "No, the universe is not elegant."

    This isn't really an answer to your question. The true answer, of course, is "No". Firstly, multiple POSSIBLE universes is completely different from multiple ACTUAL universes, so your question is fatally flawed before it even gets going.

    Secondly, you have provided no basis for the leap from "multiverse exists" to "multiverse was created by a 'man'."

    Assuming there is a multiverse, which you haven't even attempted to prove, then yes, one possibility is that it has always existed. However, you seem to be assuming that it's the only possibility - an assumption with no basis provided or implied.

    Firstly, why do you assume it must have been created? This brings us to the 'elephants all the way down' dilemma. There are only two options: either, somewhere down the line, there exists a thing that was never created by anything else - or, there is an infinite regress. Either of those are valid possibilities, of course, and I dont think there is any evidence to point either way. So there is the definite possibility that something exists which was not created - and that thing could be the multiverse itself, could it not?

    'Proof' is a thorny word. It means different things to different people, and even at different times and circumstances. There is, for example, no thorough scientific proof that reality actually exists - but there is enough evidence for most people to consider it 'proof'.

    And that aphorism about god being invented is exactly that - an aphorism, not necessarily true.

    Other than those very minor quibbles I agree with the paragraph above.

    What? No. Human ingenuity is wonderful but we can't make ANYTHING we can think up.

    I was right there with you until the last five words you flung in there. A god MIGHT have caused the big bang. But saying that IS how it went down is another assumption.

    Wait, from all that, you made a giant leap to this? There is literally nothing connecting anything you said with the REASON why god made sentient beings, even if you consider what went before as 'proof' of god. Which it isn't.




    That enough faults for now?
     
  8. Hafez

    Hafez Banned

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    A creator would be a being contained within a paradox. We see the fingerprints of such a being on a daily basis but pay no heed. It would exist but not exist at the same time, in a sense he would be in a state of superposition. As result of his nature ( which is that of a paradox ) his creation would be infinte yet finite, light yet dark, good yet evil and exist and not exist at the same time.
     
  9. Pennywise

    Pennywise Banned

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    Very nicely put and that argument itself contains the reasons why God exists, and why he doesn't exist.
     
  10. Hafez

    Hafez Banned

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    In essence both the atheist and the religious are right and wrong yet they cling to their own definitive view of reality. God is both laughing and crying as we try to figure him/her out.
     
  11. Pennywise

    Pennywise Banned

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    That's why I am agnostic. Once you start peeling through the layers of philosophy you soon realize the answer is unknowable. Yet the quest to continue to search is insatiable for some of us.
     
  12. Hafez

    Hafez Banned

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    Our minds, as humans have great difficulty grasping and truly conceptualizing paradoxes. We know what they are in theory we just cannot quite truly grasp them and utilize it in any meaningful way. HOWEVER, once a fully operational quantum computer comes online all bets are off ( and I'm not talking about the annealing computer of D-wave ) which may or may not be in a quantum state. These machines will be able to utilize effectively the power of the paradox.
     
  13. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    Well what do you believe in then?
     
  14. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    I won't go and pick it apart, I just wonder why you'd want anyone to do so. If this is your belief then no problems, it's your belief, your faith and logic has little to do with it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Have a look at Paul Davies' lecture - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Davies - right down at the bottom of the page there are links to the videos.
     
  15. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    Because I am waiting to hear a better explanation than mine.
     
  16. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    Still waiting to hear what you believe in. Unless you're a nihilist and there's no point in talking to you. Any fool can rip apart a post, but the point of posting is to ADD YOUR OPINION.
     
  17. Prof_Sarcastic

    Prof_Sarcastic New Member

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    Oh I'm sorry, did I keep you waiting for more than a few hours, just because it was 2am here and I was fast asleep? You asked for faults, I gave you some. But now you're asking my opinion, well, it's my opinion that there probably isn't anything supernatural in existence, and that includes gods.

    That doesn't mean I believe in nothing, or am a nihilist. It means that the things I believe in aren't supernatural. I believe in things like the importance of equality. I believe in syncretic politics. I believe theories like the Big Bang and evolution are the most likely explanations for the natural order of things. I believe in the cause of Scottish independence. I believe Frank Black is one of the most underrated musicians of all time. I believe lots of things, but there's not a single specific belief that I use to define myself.
     
  18. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    So what are you doing in, no less commenting on, religous topics when you're not religous?
     
  19. Prof_Sarcastic

    Prof_Sarcastic New Member

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    Discussing things. That's what forums are for.

    I'm curious why you think there's anything even the slightest bit wrong with that.

    By the way, I'm also not a murderer, but I commented on a thread about the Zimmerman case.
     
  20. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    Discussing things include your input, and you're a self-proclaimed non-believer. You don't see me starting fights in the gun section because I believe in gun control and I generally stay away from topics I have no knowledge of, unless it is to learn. Words of wisdom.
     
  21. GoneGoing

    GoneGoing New Member

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    If you to keep on telling yourself that you can't find the suitable religion, so gradually your religion, your way of life, becomes just about keeping yourself lost just so that you can claim to be lost. I mean, if you think about how often religions have to do with prophecies, the first kind is the self-fulfilling kind.
     
  22. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    I have given what you said a lot of thought in the past few weeks. And I did a lot of reading on theology. But no religion suits me- Buddhism is the closest, but I do not want to be a beggar, I would rather not eat... the whole concept of finding a benefactor to be a monk I don't like.
     
  23. Prof_Sarcastic

    Prof_Sarcastic New Member

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    Indeed, if I had no knowledge of religion I would be best advised not to give my input. However it would be presumptuous in the extreme to assume that I have no such knowledge. I note, for example, that instead of addressing my input, starting with the faults that you asked us to provide, you harp on about other issues simply based on who I am and not what I have said. You are discussing the medium and not the message. Is that the way you want to play it?
     
  24. jmpet

    jmpet New Member

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    You're a nihilist, plain and simple.
     
  25. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    alll of them answers are in the Lord of the Rings


    the author is a god to you
     

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