On poverty

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Dec 1, 2020.

  1. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, that's a non sequitur. Employers just offer people access to economic opportunity they would not otherwise have. The privileged DEPRIVE people of access to economic opportunity they WOULD otherwise have. That's what forces them onto the treadmill.
     
  2. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was telling the truth. You aren't. Try it, and you might find it is fun.
     
  3. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The problem is people and government trying to force political issues into the private sector. In the private sector, especially regarding labor, there is a delicate and logical equilibrium. All companies must pay appropriate wages to attract and sustain labor. Companies are not required to provide every employee with a so-called livable wage. It is 100% the responsibility of the worker to establish their income potential. Sure, in very rare cases, government can demand that workers are paid a minimum rate whenever the employer has an unfair advantage over labor. Since each worker chooses their employment without duress, and since an employer must pay whatever wages necessary to attract and sustain labor, regardless of any minimum wages, I don't see any 'artificial intervention'.

    Today, the MW is $7.25/hour and the median wage is ~ $16.25/hour. Even if you increased both of these by 400%, meaning $29/hour MW and $65/hour median wage, those earning $29/hour will have the same issues they have today...they will reside in the 1st quintile on the bell-curve. And we haven't even talked about collateral stuff like inflation and loss of market competition, etc. IMO when we're talking about poverty or living conditions, this is society's issue to solve. Society can build quality subsidized housing operated as non-profits. Society can provide affordable and accessible heath care. Society can remove ghetto conditions and crime. Society can provide efficient public transit. Society can provide Internet service. Society can do better city planning. Society can provide better education including transition into college studies. These are the things that will create change! Those waiting for MW to solve society's problems will be whining decades from now...
     
  4. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, it is wealthy, privileged private sector interests forcing their agenda into politics.
    No disagreement here. However...
    Employers always have an unfair advantage under capitalism because labor is always unfairly disadvantaged by the privileged.
    That is false. The worker is forcibly deprived of his liberty and thus his options by the privileged, so all employment is under duress.
    The artificial intervention is the forcible and uncompensated removal, by government, of the liberty rights of working people, and the transfer of those rights to the privileged as their private property.
    By not privileging the privileged to own others' rights.
    Or it could just stop so extravagantly subsidizing idle landowning for the unearned profit of landowners.
    Or stop making it unaffordable through monopoly privileges for the unearned profit of medical monopolists.
    Or stop the evil and insane War on Drugs that causes so much poverty and crime.
    By recovering its value to pay for it, instead of giving that value away to landowners in return for nothing.
    And other desirable infrastructure, and pay for it by recovering the value it creates instead of giving it away to landowners in return for nothing.
    If it frees itself from landowner parasitism and political corruption.
    By recovering the value it creates instead of giving it away to landowners in return for nothing.

    These are the things that will create change!
    Minimum wages are a band-aid solution that will have little effect.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  5. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    3,663
    Likes Received:
    1,680
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Meaningless soap box statement. Say what you are on about.
    NO. I was telling the truth. You aren't. Try it, and you might find it is fun.
     
  6. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have stated the relevant facts in clear, grammatical English. I don't know what you incorrectly imagine you think you might mean by calling it a "meaningless soapbox statement." It means what it says.
    :lol:
     
  7. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    3,663
    Likes Received:
    1,680
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Which is nothing. Just things that sound good, no content, its a good way to avoid scrutiny.
     
  8. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, that is false. You are merely trying to evade the facts I identified by claiming that I did not identify them.
    That is baldly false.
    Claiming that I did not say what I said is your way to avoid scrutinizing what I said.
     
  9. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    153,338
    Likes Received:
    39,002
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How is destroying the country in order to get your political goals caring about the country.

    What you are advocating is government by pure partisan ideology. Is that what you REALLY want? You want a king not a president?

    Which president would you vote for the one that says

    "I promise to work with the other side, to cross the isle and get things done"

    or the one that says

    "I will never negotiate or work with the other side and unless the Congress does my bidding nothing will get done and the country can go down the tubes"
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  10. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    3,663
    Likes Received:
    1,680
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What facts, you haven't given any facts, just some stout sounding words.
    When I asked you a simple question you flew off the handle and instantly resorted to rudeness and swearing.
    Typical of someone trying to hide their empty statements.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  11. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Words that identify the relevant facts.
    I specifically spoke of the privileged. Your simple question substituted "employers" for "the privileged." Why?
    Why did you try to change the subject from the privileged to employers by pretending I was talking about employers?
     
  12. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,262
    Likes Received:
    16,936
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Stopping republicans from destroying the country equals caring about the country.
    No, we must stop the party that wants the king, Donald Trump, in order restore democracy. You have it precisely backwards.

    Republicans do not want to negotiate squat. The proved this during the ACA, for 14 months, Obama bent over backwards to please republicans, no less than 188 amendments were done by repubs to the ACA, and when the vote came, NOT ONE ****ING REPUBLICAN VOTED FOR IT.

    Y'all don't want to negotiate ****, all you guys want to do is block, stall, hinder, slow down, democrats.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/02/politics/vote-a-rama-preview-senate/index.html

    Republican need to go to Helen Waite.

    She's got a message for them.

    Yeah, Biden would love to work with Repubs But, he's going to find out, as Obama found out, finally, and way too late, that Repubs are not into compromise. Oh, once upon a time, but since Gingrich, they have descended into a ideological insanity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  13. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    3,663
    Likes Received:
    1,680
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No they didn't. What's more you have wasted hundreds more words and still said nothing.
    I already told you why, yet still you waffle nothings. Are you afraid of discussion, you waste so many words saying nought.
     
  14. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, they did.
    I have said what I said.
    You offered a bizarre non sequitur. I don't know how to explain the facts to someone who thinks the privileged are employers. The privileged are those who hold privileges: legal entitlements to benefit from the abrogation of others' rights without making just compensation. There is some overlap with employers, but they are pretty much orthogonal categories.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, we don't agree.

    When I say someone 'trips', I mean someone subject to events well outside of their control, and which have nothing to do with them personally. Natural disaster, plague, war, fire, major accident/injury, etc. I'm not talking about people who **** up because their parents were crappy.

    "Careless" is a choice, so no agreement there either. As functioning adults, we cannot (EVER) claim we don't understand cause and effect, and every decision we make is necessarily informed by dint of living in the information age. If we choose not to access useful information prior to making decisions, we have done so voluntarily.
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It was a joke, Love!
     
  17. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    3,663
    Likes Received:
    1,680
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    More waffle. What is a privilege? A walmart store card? Earning more that the next guy?
    Legal entitlements to what? Land ownership, slaves?
    We have tried to discuss your ideas before, but you are so abrasive that all anyone can do is mock your ridiculous stance.
     
  18. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    3,663
    Likes Received:
    1,680
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So what is outside their control? Employment, Illness, Divorce, Bereavement, Subsidence, Which of these do you think people should plan for?
    I very much doubt you planned for all of them, you just got lucky they didn't happen to you.
    And why aren't you planning for war and natural disasters we all know they happen. Why weren't you funding research into Covid two years ago?
    All you have done is drawn a ring around what you've done and condemn any that didn't copy it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
    Vernan89188 and bringiton like this.
  19. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10,535
    Likes Received:
    8,149
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Compromise on a program/bill/legislation that recommends going far left, to only being middling left, isn't compromise.

    Kind of like 'do you want to be beaten, or whipped'
     
  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,262
    Likes Received:
    16,936
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    In the 50s and 60s, what you call middle left used to be middle right. It's y'all that are radical now.
    What is radical about helping suffering people on Covid? 76% of the population, which MUST include people on the right, support the bill.

    Of the 50 western developed nations, only one does not have universal health care, the United States.

    Given that UHC is the NORM, how is that radical?

    Moreover, a MAJORITY of Americas support democrats.

    I'm sorry, the radical faction are republicans, who want to privatize EVERYTHING.

    I stand my original comment.
     
  21. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, more attempts to communicate with someone who either has a problem reading clear, grammatical English or just doesn't want to know the facts.
    See? I explicitly defined privilege in my previous message: a legal entitlement to benefit from the abrogation of others' rights without making just compensation.
    How are anyone's rights abrogated by Walmart store cards?
    How is that a legal entitlement? And how does it abrogate anyone's rights?
    Yes, land deeds and slave deeds are both examples of privilege. In fact, in every capitalist economy I am aware of, land deeds are the most important (i.e., valuable) privilege.
    I only get abrasive when the other side gets dishonest. Which is pretty much always, because evil must always be justified, and the only way to justify it is with lies.
     
  22. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, it was victim blaming.
     
  23. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    3,663
    Likes Received:
    1,680
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Its meaningless unless you define what that legal entitlement is.
    Finally you get back to your soap box. Owning land. I tried to discuss this with you, but you are so rude and aggressive I gave up.
    How the fig you think you'll persuade anyone with your attitude I don't know. And your ideas are so ill thought through they will never make it without some adjustment and a hell of a lot of persuasion.
    Perhaps that isn't what you want, perhaps your dream is to be a mild amusement on a politics forum, in which case well done!
     
    AZ. likes this.
  24. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10,535
    Likes Received:
    8,149
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No one said the COVID bill in its premise is 'radical', but unrelated pork is, regardless of who tried to slide it in. You obviously aren't aware of the rest of what is in the COVID bill, money that is not helping Americans harmed by the side effects of COVID.

    How many other countries are Democratic Republics? Would you accept the taxing rates of these other countries? Their benevolent ruling class?

    So you think majority rule is the thing? Well, gang rape is majority rule too. Think on that for a bit.

    Those that want things they cannot afford, or those that can afford them but want other people to pay for them, will vote for those who will give them what they want.

    Republicans in their own majority, are not 'radical', that's a misnomer if I ever heard one.
     
  25. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,398
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What do you mean, "what that legal entitlement is"? There are lots of different kinds. The most important (valuable) ones are land titles, IP monopolies, bank licenses, oil and mineral rights, and broadcast spectrum allocations, in roughly that order (depends on country).
    IOW, I wouldn't let you get away with disingenuous bull$#!+, so you bailed.
    Naively, I imagine that people can be persuaded by fact and logic.
    My ideas are very thoroughly thought through, as you learned when you disputed them, and have been adjusted where I found them lacking. Getting the facts and logic right is so difficult, I don't have the time or energy to make them persuasive to people who have already decided not to know facts that prove their beliefs are false and evil.
     

Share This Page