Open carry movement

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by mihapiha, Jun 21, 2015.

  1. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    Hey guys.

    As a European, the American gun culture is rather alien to me. However I do wish to understand the policy disputes in that regard.

    I saw some images of the "Open Carry Movement" who carry their rifles openly when they go shopping. The argument I have heard is, that they worry about loosing their weapons because of some policy changes. As in "We loose it if we don't use it". So the openly carry their arsenal to Sears when they go shopping and probably frighten the living crap out of other customers. The 2nd amendment right protects gun owners though. It's an amendment of the constitution, and it cannot be changed that easily.

    It seems gun legislation in America has run into heavy resistance, since gun owners seem to worry of loosing .... what exactly?
     
  2. QLB

    QLB Well-Known Member

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    It's really rather simple. The anti-gun crowd's eventual goal is the total disarmament of our society. They preach such things as "reasonable" gun control but fail to enforce the numerous laws already on the books. We've been lied to so much that nobody believes the anti-gunners anymore. In short, when they open their mouths we know they're lying.
    We as a society have been provided a fundamental right of self defense. Europeans do not have this. We are ( were ) citizens but you are really nothing more than subjects. This distinction is notable. We're also a "frontier" society with a tradition of firearm ownership. Liberals seek to destroy the culture that has been built and gun control is just another weapon in their armament.
    We also realize that ultimately your self protection relies upon yourself as a "rugged individualist." A firearm equals the odds when facing disparate odds. Liberal seek to negate this. They're the ultimate cowards, realize this about themselves and seek to impose this upon the rest of us by whatever means necessary.
    This is touches the tip of the iceberg, but will get you started.
     
  3. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    Depends on who you ask.

    If you ask the common joe gun owner they'll tell you it's about rights. If you ask the NRA, it's because gun sales had been decreasing since the 1990's and the threat of losing guns is a pretty good selling point. Think of it as a commodity that is going to become rare. Buy cheap now, then as it goes scarce you can sell it for a profit.
     
  4. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    In other words, because the goal is total disarmament of the US society (even though impossible, because it's a constitutional right), the discussion is at a stand still?


    The laws in place in the US obviously don't work. But isn't there a reasonable dialog going on, on how to make them work? Because all I heard so far are pretty extreme views, whether from the left or the right... Or at least they make the news...
     
  5. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    So the gun sales are a reason for the "Open Carry Movement"?

    But I ask again, what right is the "common joe gun owner" worry about loosing?
     
  6. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    There is no right. It's just economics.
     
  7. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Matters pertaining to sales have nothing to do with the open carry movement. Despite what various polls suggest, firearm sales have been increasing rather than decreasing.

    The open carry movement is a complex issue that cannot be answered in soundbyte form, with one or two generalized sentences. Some carry firearms because the media is constantly assaulting them with stories about violent terrorists in the united states, and having no desire to be victimized by someone who does not belong in the country. Some carry firearms to help educate the general public that there is nothing illegal with carrying a firearm, regardless of its appearance or platform design. Some do it to once again normalize the concept of how firearms are a part of everyday life, just as it was viewed prior to the liberal upswing some fifty years ago. Some carry because they simply wish to do so. Some do it because they feel the need to for whatever reasons they have experienced at a prior point in life.

    As said, it is a complex issue. There are no easy answers to be had.
     
  8. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    There is from time to time. But in the end, reasonable dialog must eventually come down to addressing a specific fact. No matter what law is on the books, or what method of enforcement is attempted, it amounts to nothing if a prosecutor refuses to seek charges for violation of the law. More often than not, all firearm-related offenses are dropped by the prosecutor in an effort to expedite a plea deal for the sake of obtaining a conviction of some charge, so they can claim they are doing their jobs. There are hundreds of thousands of offenders they must go through every year, and the incentive to make deals to save on time is very high for them. So unless there are specific circumstances surrounding the case, the more serious charges will often be discarded.
     
  9. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe Well-Known Member

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    I could go into a lengthy explanation of why those guys in TX were carrying rifles into shopping venues. But wait. I learned that explanation because I performed my due diligence in the course of educating myself. If you would follow these issues, you would know the same things as I do.
    It's not fair to just pop in, and expect us to endow you with an understanding of the whole thing. That's much like expecting to earn a degree just because you showed up for class. You can't understand a subject unless you invest your own attention over a period of time.
     
  10. OrlandoChuck

    OrlandoChuck Well-Known Member

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    Where is your proof that if you ask the NRA that it is about gun sales?
    Your argument about decreasing gun sales is a lie.
    Background checks have gone from eight hundred thousand in 1998 to over twenty million in 2014.

    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf
     
  11. Texan

    Texan Well-Known Member

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    Gun laws vary greatly in each of our 50 states. States like New York and California have heavy restrictions on gun ownership, magazine capacities, and self defense laws. These states mandate getting a license to own a gun and they make you justify a need for a license at the discretion of the state. Places like this use increased police presence to keep crime down at the expense of personal freedom.

    States like Florida and Texas give law abiding citizens much more freedom to protect themselves with Stand Your Ground Laws and Castle Doctrine Laws. They also allow unregulated private sales between individuals, there are no magazine size restrictions, assault style rifles are perfectly legal, and after passing state and federal background checks and attending a training course, citizens can get a Concealed Handgun License and carry their gun with them just about anywhere. A CHL in these states are typically "shall issue" meaning the state will issue the license unless they fail the background check. While ownership is not very restricted, open carry of handguns is illegal. In Texas, some groups have been open carrying rifles as a demonstration to support open carry of holstered handguns.(Open carry of rifles is legal in TX.) Next year, we will be able to openly carry holstered handguns if we already have a CHL. Some of these groups were irresponsible and open carried rifles inside of businesses and were ordered to leave by the property owner exercising their private property rights. They should have kept the protests on the public streets.

    The drawback of having guns everywhere is more accidents. They are rare, but that is the cost. The drawback of gun control is that crime is not deterred by criminals fearing that their victims may be armed. Many people live where police response is slow and police CANNOT protect them.

    I won't get into the 2nd Amendment issues. You can read the arguments in those threads. Hope this helps.
     
  12. OrlandoChuck

    OrlandoChuck Well-Known Member

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    The open carry movement is about folks excersizing their 2A rights in states that it is perfectly legal to open carry. They want to let the public see firearms in the hands of good people poses no threat. They want to desensitize the public so that seeing firearms is commonplace and there is no reason to freak out.
    It has nothing to do with sales, the open carry folks are just common citizens that share an interest. They make no money off of gun sales.
     
  13. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    And how can I separate the BS from the rest? I do live in Europe, and comments on the net tend to be quite extreme. The arguments for the open carry movement I've heard were usually limited to "we loose it if we don't use it".

    But you're now the second or third person who keeps saying it's complicated, yet unwilling to address the issue for someone living outside an American gun culture.
     
  14. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    It does explain a lot. Thank you.

    From a non-gun culture background it is hard to comprehend why there is such an emphasis on guns. Many people I know own a gun here in Europe as well, but getting the license I assume is much harder. People wouldn't consider taking their weapons here on the road to show it off, or something in that respect. I'm not sure if that's even legal here to do so. The weapon is considered a tool, so people living in rural areas, hunters, etc. have few problems acquiring a gun. The license does include a lot of physiological testing and verified training to handle the weapon I'm sure. But just to compare: I live in the second largest city in Austria. Including suburbs we have roughly a half a million inhabitants, and there are two stores where you could purchase a weapon.

    So I do understand the weapon as a tool, especially if you live in rural Utah or Montana where you can be attacked by a bear. It Is hard for me to comprehend the need of this tool in the downtown of a city. So outside of it being a tool of protection in rural areas, the gun falls more into the hobby category, I would imagine.

    The American gun culture is known, but I fail to understand it though. The second amendment I thought would protect gun owners in order to remain gun owners, yet I hear so much talk from the right side, that "they are going to take our guns away." Neither Democrats nor Republicans have making guns illegal in their political agenda, or am I wrong? For some reason this topic (among others) just seems to be filled with to many noisy people with extreme views, who make no sense. Something which makes it really hard to understand for people in Europe, especially since we don't get to hear the dialog among sensible gun owners. It always seems to be the NRA some politician or an activist of some kind to get into the news.
     
  15. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Quite wrong actually. Many united states politicians have either called for prohibitions on the ownership of various firearms, and introduced legislation that would do such if it were passed into law, or have voiced support for reclassifying the ammunition that is used in order to make it illegal to own, which would thus render the firearms useless.
     
  16. CRUE CAB

    CRUE CAB New Member

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    Why are other nations so worried and interested in our gun RIGHTS? Why does it bother them so much that they shunned having individual rights. Yet we hang on to them tooth and nail.
    I am sure there are things that in your country would be alien to me, but I don't let it bother me.
    Like, why you people drive on the wrong side of the road?
     
  17. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good explanation.
     
  18. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    To comment on all that briefly:

    - According what I've heard more than 10,000 people get killed yearly in the US by firearms, which is a very high number (and even homicide rate) for any developed country without a war. The fact that you guys have so many tragedies with mass-shootings, is worrying to everybody.
    - That fact that I'm trying to understand an issue in America, shouldn't be a bad thing, I'd tought.
    - It's a pretty rare thing if you personally don't care about the other people's culture, I'd say. Many Americans seem to be bothered and focused on laws and rights of other peoples. Especially if a different law in the US would prevent over 10,000 people dying annually. (If you can't think of an example, just think of a random place in the middle east.)

    And to answer your question about the road:

    We all drive on the wrong side of the road, because we had French influence. It was Napoleon who changed it from the traditional left side of the road to the right. So any country with major French influences over the last 200 years tends to be driving on the right side; those excluded (like Great Britain, Australia, Japan, etc.) remain driving on the left. America's oldest ally made you switch to the right side of the road, just like us in Continental Europe...
     
  19. QLB

    QLB Well-Known Member

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    First of all there are over 300 million people in the country. Secondly, the vast majority of the homicides are perpetrated within the minority communities with African Americans accounting for over half. There are many areas within the US that have homicides rates equal to or lower than Europe.
     
  20. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Reasonable dialog... lol... I think that is a foreign concept as both sides are entrenched in their specific views and unwilling to give an inch. There are moderates and independents that are having a more civil debate but their civility is drowned out by the hyperbole coming from the far left and right.
     
  21. OrlandoChuck

    OrlandoChuck Well-Known Member

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    Why aren't other countries concerned about other ways that Americans die that rival gun homicide stats. Roughly just as many people die in drunk driving accidents.
    Why don't we blame alcohol like we blame guns?
     
  22. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    The discussion is at a stand still for several reasons.

    First, crime in the US has dropped more than 50% in the past 25 years, at the same time states have relaxed their gun laws and firearm ownership has increased. Mass shootings are big media events but are very rare. Crime in the US is highly localized in the big cities, outside of those cities the US is very safe. Polls show Americans are comfortable with firearms and know how to handle them. Yet gun banners constantly trot out propaganda at every opportunity. Most Americans I think see the conflict between reality and the propaganda, as a result they dismiss and distrust the gun banners.

    Second, gun banners have a 40 year history of lying. They claim some measure is common sense and won't be a burden to honest gun owners, the measure is passed, and then the banners ratchet up the rules to make a de facto ban. Even now, some cities defy the Supreme Court in order to keep gun bans in place.
     
  23. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    About 8,300 are killed by firearm related homicide, almost all in the biggest cities - cities which have the strictest gun control.

    Why focus on gun crimes and ignore all the other violent crimes? The US has a higher homicide rate, but lower rates for assault with severe bodily injury, robbery, sexual assault, than Canada, the UK, and Australia. The US homicide rate is about 4.6, if firearm related homicides are removed it would be about 2.0 (that does not mean simply removing firearms eliminates those homicides, some would be performed with other weapons). Australia has a homicide rate of about 1.9, the UK and Canada are below that.

    But the violent crime rates in 2009 (its dated, I haven't bothered to update to a more recent year) were >2,000 for the UK, 866 for Australia, 780 for Canada, and 386 for the US. Those are from the respective government crime reports.

    When Australia implemented its 1996 gun control/ban, crime went up, including murder. Some crime rates decreased (homicide is now below the pre-ban rate), most are still above the pre-ban rate.


    Knowledge is one thing, intrusion is something else. Many pro-gun people are also of the live-and-let-live stripe, they don't tell Europeans what to do, and they don't want Europeans telling them what to do.
     
  24. CRUE CAB

    CRUE CAB New Member

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    Funny, your comments dont answer my question.
     
  25. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter where you live. When you are online, you are "in the world". You can go to this site:
    http://www.http://www.nevadacarry.org/
    and learn every thing that is available to me about open carry in Nevada, where I live.
    Whatever questions you have about "the gun culture" in general can be answered by visiting the gun forums of any State in America. Do a search, using the keywords "Iowa gun forums", and you'll find a local discussion board for Iowa. Use any State name the same way. I still stress that you can't know anything unless you actively engage in the process of finding out.

     

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