Origin of our species

Discussion in 'Science' started by waltky, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    30,071
    Likes Received:
    1,204
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    DNA Evidence Suggests Man 340,000-Years-Old...
    :eekeyes:
    The family tree that rewrote human history: Researchers stunned to find DNA submitted to online project dates back 338,000 years
    7 March 2013 | Discovery made after American submitted his DNA to a family tree service; DNA traced to Mbo, a population living in a tiny area of western Cameroon; Proves last common Y chromosome ancestor lived 338,000 years ago, even though oldest fossil of modern man is only 200,000 years old
     
  2. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,318
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    83
    It's plausible that hundreds of thousands of years ago, modern and archaic humans in central Africa interbred and Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population and a previously unknown archaic species of human was recently discovered in Nigeria, which is an African equivalent of Neanderthals. There are other known examples of interbreeding and the Neanderthals interbred with modern humans in the Middle East and they contributed to 1-4% of modern Europeans' as well as Asians' DNA makeup and the Denisovans in southeast Asia are the direct ancestors of native peoples in Australia, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea, who have up to 9% of Denisovan DNA.
     
  3. Wizard From Oz

    Wizard From Oz Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2008
    Messages:
    9,676
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am not sure I am following the significance of this. Is there not fossil evidence that shows a migration from Kenya into this area
     
  4. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    30,071
    Likes Received:
    1,204
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Wiz wrote: Is there not fossil evidence that shows a migration from Kenya into this area

    Granny says...
    :grandma:
    ... "Obama."
     
  5. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Of course our genetic markers will match those of ancestral species , we didn't appear out of thin air !


    It would be very surprising if they ever find bones of hominids we lived together and didn't sex , so far everything that coexisted with us and our ancestors have been humped .

    (for those don't know our pubic lice is of gorilla origin ........)
     
  6. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    an unknown archaic species is a good explanation...
     
  7. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    30,071
    Likes Received:
    1,204
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Granny says dat looks like Uncle Ferd an' one o' his fishin' buddies...
    :grandma:
    Neanderthal Genome Data Sheds Light on Human Ancestors
    March 21, 2013 - Scientists at Germany's Max Planck Institute have released a final version of a high-quality sequencing of a Neanderthal genome, which could shed light on why humans survived and earlier hominid species did not.
     
  8. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,318
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    83
    [​IMG]

    The genome sequence was generated from a toe bone discovered in Denisova Cave in southern Siberia in 2010. The bone is described in Mednikova (Ethnology & Anthropology of Eurasia 2011. 39: 129-138 ). DNA sequences were generated on the Illumina HiSeq platform and constitute an average 50-fold coverage of the genome. 99.9% of the 1.7GB of uniquely mappable DNA sequences in the human genome are covered at least ten times. Contamination with modern human DNA, estimated from mitochondrial and nuclear DNA sequences, is around 1%. The figure shows a tree relating this genome to the genomes of Neandertals from Croatia, from Germany and from the Caucasus as well as the Denisovan genome recovered from a finger bone excavated at Deniosva Cave. It shows that this individual is closely related to these other Neandertals. Thus, both Neandertals and Denisovans have inhabited this cave in southern Siberia, presumably at different times. All data is made freely available. However, we ask users to observe the Ft. Lauderdale principles, which entitles the data producers to make the first presentation and publish the first genome-wide analysis of the data. The data can be used freely for studies of individual genes or other individual features of the genome. Alignments for all Neandertal sequences to the human genome are available in BAM format.

    http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/index.html
     
    primate, waltky and (deleted member) like this.
  9. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    30,682
    Likes Received:
    256
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Fascinating stuff- thanks for sharing this.
     
  10. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    it wasn't long ago the thought was neanderthals and sapiens were thought to be too genetically dissimilar to interbreed but new DNA research
    apparently shows that modern man was able to exchange DNA with both Neanderthals and Deniosvans so IMO it really stretches the concept of sub-species as I understand it... we are/were very, very similar are we too similar to be classified as different "sub-species" ?
     
  11. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,318
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    83
    One of the most frequently debated questions in paleoanthropology concerns the arrival in Europe of our species, Homo sapiens, anatomically modern humans (AMHs), and the fate of the humans who lived in this territory prior to their arrival, the Neanderthals. According to one point of view the Neanderthals did not really disappear, but were incorporated into the new incoming modern humans. Authors who support this hypothesis have argued that there was a change in morphology of late Neanderthals [1]–[3] and have interpreted certain anatomic features observed among early AMHs in Europe as a result of a continuity with Neanderthals [4], [5].

    An opposing model has claimed that there is great discontinuity between Neanderthals and modern humans [13], [14] and relates the demise of the Neanderthals to the territorial expansion of AMHs from Africa through the Near East. During recent years, data collected in Europe that seemed to support this view have been questioned. First, Neanderthal nuclear DNA shows a low level of interbreeding (4%) with sapiens [21]. Furthermore, H. sapiens is now associated with local (Uluzzian) so-called "transitional assemblages" at Grotta del Cavallo in the southern Italian peninsula while the human remains were previously thought to be Neanderthals [9], [22]. The new dating shows that the AMHs reached the southern Italian peninsula at around 45–43 ka BP, which is at least 7000 years earlier than was previously supposed.

    In this article we examine the morphology of the Mezzena mandible (Figure 1) found in 1957 [28]. We argue that the mandibular morphology of late Italian Neanderthals, in particular the chin, may help us better understand the transition between the two human groups. The study of the human remains of Middle Paleolithic Riparo Mezzena, a rockshelter in the Monti Lessini (Venetian region -NE Italy) associated with Charentian Mousterian lithic assemblages [29], [30] has led to the identification of the only genetically typed Neanderthal of the Italian peninsula (cf. [31]–[33] and this study) and has confirmed through dating that it belongs to a late Neanderthal (i.e. 34.5±655 ka) [30]. This study of the Mezzena mandible shows that the chin region is similar to that of other late Neanderthals which display a much more modern morphology with an incipient mental trigone (e.g. Spy 1, Saint Césaire). In our view, this change in morphology among late Neanderthals reopens the debate on the "more modern like" morphology of late Neanderthals and can lend support to the hypothesis of a certain degree of continuity with AMHs or a possible interbreeding with them.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0059781
     
  12. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    30,071
    Likes Received:
    1,204
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    wyly wrote: it wasn't long ago the thought was neanderthals and sapiens were thought to be too genetically dissimilar to interbreed but new DNA research
    apparently shows that modern man was able to exchange DNA with both Neanderthals and Deniosvans


    Granny figgers dat's the way it happened...
    :grandma:
    ... with Uncle Ferd.
    :wink:
     
  13. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,318
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    83
    DNA sequences retrieved from hominin remains offer an approach complementary to morphology for understanding hominin relationships. For Neanderthals, the nuclear genome was recently determined to about 1.3-fold coverage8. This revealed that Neanderthal DNA sequences and those of present-day humans share common ancestors on average about 800,000 years ago and that the population split of Neanderthal and modern human ancestors occurred 270,000–440,000 years ago. It also showed that Neanderthals shared more genetic variants with present-day humans in Eurasia than with present-day humans in sub-Saharan Africa, indicating that gene flow from Neanderthals into the ancestors of non-Africans occurred to an extent that 1–4% of the genomes of people outside Africa are derived from Neanderthals8. When we compare the skew in the fraction of derived alleles shared with the two archaic hominins to what would be expected for individuals of 100% Neanderthal or Denisova ancestry, respectively (Supplementary Information section 8 and ref. 8 ), we estimate that 2.5 ± 0.6% of the genomes of non-African populations derive from Neanderthals, in agreement with our previous estimate of 1–4%8. In addition, we estimate that 4.8 ± 0.5% of the genomes of Melanesians derive from Denisovans. Altogether, as much as 7.4 ± 0.8% of the genomes of Melanesians may thus derive from recent admixture with archaic hominins.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v468/n7327/full/nature09710.html


     
  14. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
  15. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,318
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The Cambridge study was discredited by the publication of a new study that showed the last interbreeding event between Neanderthals and modern humans occurred 37,000–86,000 years before the present (Sankararaman S, Patterson N, Li H, Pääbo S, Reich D (2012) The Date of Interbreeding between Neandertals and Modern Humans. PLoS Genet 8(10): e1002947. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1002947) and the date should be much older than 100,000 years ago if it had taken place in Africa as Cambridge anthropologists argue. There is also new evidence that supports the theory of Neanderthal interbreeding with our ancestors and the skeletal remains of a person uncovered recently in the northern part of Italy showed both Neanderthal and modern features (post #11).

     
  16. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    they're not arguing interbreeding of different species but remnant DNA of a single specie...claiming a study that is published only two months after the Cambridge instantly discredits the Cambridge study is a bit premature at this time...

    I did a term paper on a neanderthal/sapien " hybrid" remains 30 yrs ago and those turned out not to be hybrids...

    I'm not arguing for or against this idea I'm just not convinced either way as yet...I was convinced there was interbreeding 30yrs ago but today I have my doubts...
     
  17. krunkskimo

    krunkskimo New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    0
    until you can show me how this [​IMG] magically turned into Humans in the fossil record....
     
  18. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,318
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Another study published last year generally favours the admixture (interbreeding) hypothesis but it's still difficult to discredit the ancient African substructure hypothesis entirely. Nevertheless, the Cambridge authors, who put forward the new hypothesis, concede that there was the admixture between Neanderthals and the ancestor of both Europeans and Asians before their split and they do not claim that anatomically modern humans never admixed with other hominins (Eriksson A, Manica A, 2012). Further research may be needed to clarify this issue but the academic world is leaning towards the former.

     
    primate likes this.
  19. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    interesting, I was convinced for a long time there was interbreeding and I'm still leaning that way but I have a doubt now...I'll be watching how this plays out over time as more data comes tipping the debate one way or the other...
     
  20. PrometheusBound

    PrometheusBound New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    3,868
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The fact that this group originated in West Africa doesn't mean it was Black. The different races came from different and hostile species, all of which evolved at different rates.

    Political correctness slants all conclusions from data. For example, an archeologist discovered an ancient Egyptian text describing Black invaders as merciless and wild. The PC explanation has to be that this was just war propaganda.
     
  21. gabriel1

    gabriel1 New Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,789
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    feel free to provide any scientific studies that show different races came from different species.
     
  22. mogur

    mogur Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I'm not sure that Rick Perry was there a hundred thousand years ago. Maybe, but his makeup is impeccable.
     
  23. PrometheusBound

    PrometheusBound New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    3,868
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Intellectual fields that don't produce anything material tend to attract the less intelligent. So anyone who is more intelligent than the losers who go into these escapist studies is capable of deeper insights. The talent pool in these self-indulgent fields is also inhibited by conformity or influenced to come up with clever reinforcements of basic lies, like lawyers do.

    It is wiser to do retroactive pre-history. Take the conditions today and try to see what the past that led to them should have been like. I see a Cro-Magnon/Neanderthal split in all races, with the less evolved group winding up living in the less inhabitable areas: the jungle, the desert, the mountains, and the frozen North. So the Southeast Asians and Mongols are separate from the Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese. The Jews are far more advanced than their Arab Semitic brothers. The Central Asian mountain men are far below the Hindus. The American Indian had first been driven to where he belonged, in Siberia, then lucked out in crossing over to a continental paradise he had no right to. History started to correct this error in 1492.

    Whites are diffentiated by how much their inferior Neanderthal genes are expressed. Both the slavish and the authoritarians are crippling the race. Americans should be representatives of a reaction to this. We left Europe because of the oppressive cancer of hereditary rule above us, added to those in our own class who masochistically liked to get pushed around by the nobility. Bluebloods and brown-noses will destroy the Red, White, and Blue.
     
  24. Ed Gibbon

    Ed Gibbon New Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2013
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That was my thought as well. There was obviously a transition from anatomically pre-modern human beings to anatomically modern human beings, so where's the surprise? What am I missing?
     
  25. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I wasn't talking about HSS only , we still have membranes in our eyes and a muscle to move a tail and those are what's left from our primate and amphibian ancestors , what i am saying is that we for sure carry genes from Rhodesian man, Erectus , Australopithicians and so on.
     

Share This Page