Our political divide, Part 1

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by bricklayer, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I disagree with them because neither is correct in my opinion.

    Just look at the preamble of the Constitution, for example.

    https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/preamble

    I'd say they are not upholding the Constitution. No party is.
     
  2. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    James Madison puts it like this:

    https://www.congress.gov/resources/display/content/The+Federalist+Papers#TheFederalistPapers-45

    Paragraphs separated by me. Bold lettering for emphasis applied by me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  3. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    After reading that, how many laws are now unconstitutional? Most, I'd say, which have been added to govern the lives of the people through the federal government.
     
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  4. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    The post above pretty much answers the OPs questions? Generalizations pretty much always fall apart when applied to individuals instead of trying to force them into a box of group-think.
     
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  5. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Ask the average person if the government has created too many regulations, they’ll say yes.

    Ask that same person about individual regulations one by one and you’ll be amazed at how the answers change.

    The nebulas thought of “regulations” is negative, the specifics of the protections of those regulations are more often seen as positives. Just the way the human mind works.

    Tell a person that the government voted in Obamacare, they may have a negative reaction - tell the same person that the government voted in protections for preexisting conditions, and watch their reaction change.
     
  6. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    According to the founders and framers, and I agree, the fundamental purpose of government is to protect the "inalienable" rights of the individual. Those are listed but includes many not listed and is generally simplified for brevity to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (and which inherently includes private property.)

    To accomplish that the constitution recognizes the purposeful obligations of the federal government. As summarized in the Preamble these are establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare, all to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. I believe the 50% who put the general welfare at the top confuse promote with provide. The Constitution specifically did not want the federal government to provide for the general welfare. Promote the general welfare means to create an environment that allows individuals to pursue their own goals as best they can without restraint from the government.

    I also think the framers meant what they said in the enumerated powers in the federal government, although the enumerated powers cover a lot of ground. This was extremely important because as you state large central governments are a bane to individual liberty. It wasn't so much corruption as you say, though that was important, but tyranny is much easier to take hold in a large powerful central government for the reasons you state. That is why they established a republic and, recognizing that the tyranny of the majority is every bit as bad as the tyranny of the despot, strongly limited what a democracy per se could do (and would be appalled at the direct election of senators for instance).

    One of the biggest problems of today (not including the lack of virtue in politicians) is that the foundation under the enumerated powers had been reduce to rubble. The framers would roll over in their graves knowing the federal government is deciding how your appliances should be built, what mileage your car has to get, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. This is the path to tyranny. Without due diligence tyranny is the natural progression of government because people love power. As de Tocqueville said tyranny takes over just a tiny bit at a time until the populace has long since gotten used to the myriad [millions] of tiny -- and ever growing bigger -- rules and regulations that get imposed on the people. Then when the people finally realize they have been had, it is too late. It is infinitely easier to give up liberty than it is to take it back.
     
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  7. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    You mean TARP, that bottomed the market on March 2, 2009 before Obama found the closet where Bubba did Lewinsky? Apparently you didn't invest in Solyndra or by a Government Motors VOLT.
     
  8. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    Nah, Im talking about how he expanded the GI bill to cover apprenticeships, and trade schools.
    But I live in a blue state..Thanx to our policy's aligning with Obama's we saw a much sharper and faster recovery then red states. Along with other hand-up's that helped me as a single father and others as well in similar situations. Such as the electric unions fresh start program, Head start, and expanded daycare, etc.
     
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  9. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    I think that the divide you are claiming has more to do with right wing propaganda than reality. This can be seen in that one is twice as likely to be arrested and charged with a crime in a red state than a blue one. Everywhere Republicans rule there is less freedom than where Democrats rule.

    However the government’s first priority is to represent the will of the people. That is the whole idea of the United States. The maximum good for the maximum numbers. Some are going to get pushed aside, but that will occur under any system.

    People, human beings, have always been social animals. There is no instance of a society thriving as disinterested individuals. People always do better working together. Government, in the modern sense, is people working together to do things that benefit all of society.
     
  10. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    That was the clear trend during the Obama years. Most Republican governors and legislatures blocked all assistance, causing their states to suffer financially. The financial aid instead went to blue states which thrived.
     
  11. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    He created an 8 year war in Libya. It may finally come to a close.
     
  12. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, like where the municipal prosecutors said they wouldn't prosecute thieves as long as the amount stolen was less than $750. Now THAT is some freedom - for the freaking criminals! It seems to me that "being able to get away with crimes" is decidedly not equivalent to "having more freedom." When it comes to freedom, you have to include the victims in the calculation. I personally would prefer to live in an area where criminals are prosecuted to the maximum extent.
     
  13. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    So I doubt the solution is for Trump to put is in another one.
     
  14. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    It's not nebulous when you work with regulations daily like I do (btw I make more money in a hyperregulatory regime, so am speaking against financial self-interest). Just a couple examples, could go into greater detail if it would do any good:

    Tax Code, the federal regulations that affect taxpayers the most, and correlates well with the growth in other regulations:

    https://taxfoundation.org/federal-tax-laws-and-regulations-are-now-over-10-million-words-long

    Note the chart in the attached. I can assure you that the business and personal income climate has -not- become 10x more complex from the 1950s to date in justification of a 10x lengthier and more complex tax code. Many aspects of conducting business and personal finance have become LESS complex in the net age. WHY the explosive growth then? CRONY CAPITALISM. Large crony companies in the Complex and other interests benefit from excessively complex tax regulations that they have the economies of scale to deal with, fleets of accountants and people like me. Smaller competition suffers in the regulatory bog, and eventually makes easy pickings for acquisition by giant crony corps, lessening competition and consumer choice, contributing to "too big to fail," ruining the diversity of our business climate, fostering monopolistic entities. None of those things are good for the economy.

    Financial Regulations, will use relatively recent Dodd Frank as an example. This is an extremely expensive financial regulation that we ALL pay for, yet it does not even come close to addressing the actual causes of the 2008 crash. What was supposed to be a security measure against further crashes was specifically tailored to be the SAME KIND OF CRONY REGULATION that our tax code has become:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/is-dodd-frank-a-failure_2197409.html

    Below is a Complex-leaning paper posted here solely for the survey at the end in the appendix that comports with my own professional opinion of Dodd Frank:

    https://muse.jhu.edu/article/647066/pdf

    If all we got positive from Dodd Frank were the top five "purple bar" items, then those could have been addressed in far simpler and less onerous regulations. WHY the massive government power grabbing law then? CRONY CAPITALISM, same analysis as with the tax section above.

    Who suffers? Small banks (thus all of us), and so the regulation ENCOURAGES the "too big to fail" reality that was a large factor in 2008 and CONTINUES TODAY. We can and will have another 2008, and the massive CRONY LAW Dodd Frank does little or nothing to prevent it, could EXACERBATE it when it happens.

    Now, if you want to pick some other fields of troublesome, onerous regulations that we all pay for, we can do those, Environmental, Labor, etc. But I'll tell you in advance my professional analysis will be similar. A small % of the regs are legitimate and remotely effective, the vast bulk are for LARGE CRONIES for the purpose of stifling competition and enriching the Complex.

    And anyone interested should take a gander at this list of federal agencies, many of whom promulgate regulations and rulemaking via illegitimate Congressional delegation of legislative power. Scroll. scroll, scroll to the bottom and ask yourselves who are the real "public servants." TAXPAYERS are flip-flopped as the servants of GOVERNMENT, regulations are a primary tool of that:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_agencies_in_the_United_States

    So if you enjoy laboring under the yoke of a corrupt, incompetent, absurdly expensive, illegitimate, rapidly growing government-regulatory monstrosity, keep blathering platitudes and conjecture, keep paying 10-20% more of your LIFE in a hidden regulatory cost regime and getting mostly SQUAT in return. In the status quo WE are the servants of GOVERNMENT, no two ways around it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  15. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    I just can’t figure out how conservatives can claim that egalitarians are authoritarians.
     
  16. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are conservatives making that claim? I don't think so.
     
  17. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Isn't that nutty? lol
     
  18. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Tell me and I will show you... go ahead...
     
  19. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Especially when one is a minority!

    Those on the right have a tendency to lambast and label others that are not like them. No wonder the predominant red state view is that they don't want the federal government telling them what to, because it forces them to interact with people who they don't consider to be one of them. Giving states full autonomy to act on their own without answering to the greater good of all states creates areas where disproportionate racism and bigotry is allowed to grow unfettered.
     
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  20. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    The US claims they created a nation to protect life, liberty, and property. yet started with slaves which only proves the words are nothing but propaganda..
     
  21. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    The above is like saying that if the first dose of chemo doesn't work, it never will.
     
  22. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How does government degrade the general welfare by allowing them to keep more of there own money?
     
  23. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since you don't seem to understand our history,and that we sacrificed thousands of lives to undo slavery.....why don't you leave?
     
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  24. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    It can't promoting individual liberty and prosperity is the surest way to guarantee the general welfare.
     
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  25. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wouldn't trade my authority over and responsibility for myself (liberty) in exchange for everything else.
    You could offer me the whole world in exchange for my liberty; and my answer would be, give me liberty, or give me death.
     
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