Parker Solar Probe: How Nasa is trying to 'touch' the Sun.

Discussion in 'Science' started by cerberus, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The big bang theory ignores the law of physics.

    Science tells us that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. So we are to believe that everything was created in a space smaller than an atom in a random explosion by matter that already existed?

    When did it begin to exist?

    That's the same problem Christians have with explaining God, its not possible according to physics.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's not the only mistake attributable to him, either.

    But, please note that this statement isn't contrary to any theory of physics. He didn't hypothesize that atoms can't be shattered, for example.
     
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  3. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No it doesn't but it does show that his knowledge of physics was incomplete.

    Rudimentary so.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, scientists have a very good idea of when T0 was.

    They even have a better idea of where it happened, though I doubt you will like the answer.

    As for the specifics of how it happened or what it came out of, there are few answered questions.

    Just for grins let's remember that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence of the event.
     
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  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You are confusing engineering and science. At the time of the quote, Einstein misjudged future engineering.

    And, given where you are today, it's really rather surprising to hear you suggest there was something "rudimentary" about Einstein!
     
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  6. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Am I alone that. as a child shining a flashlight into the night sky while thinking of the light from the flashlight traveling to other stars?
     
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  7. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    You aren't going to to do it with anything that has mass.
     
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  8. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    You aren't going to to do it with anything that has mass.

    Uh....what? That is exactly what relativity prohibits.
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Maybe what she was talking about is the expansion of the universe.

    The understanding is that space is expanding. I don't know the best way to say it, but the speed at which stars are receding is a combination of their actual speed plus the expansion of the intervening universe. The farther away they are, the greater the expansion of the universe will be. At some point, the distant galaxy's speed plus the expansion of the intervening space will be greater than the speed of light - thus any new light from the galaxy will never get to earth.

    The number of galaxies we can see is decreasing as the universe expands.
     
  10. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    Ok, i see that, but any light that did reach us would still be measured at exactly the speed of light.
     
  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Space can expand faster than the speed of light and no one yet knows why, only that it does.
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Definitely. Special relativity covers the speed of light, but general relativity includes expansion of the universe. It's certainly a weird thought, but there should be cases where photons aimed at Earth have reached the point where the expansion of space between the photon and earth is slower than light speed - so the photon will get here - even though the distance between earth and that distant galaxy is increasing at faster than light speed.

    Of course, that doesn't help with our desire to travel at light speed. It just means that there are objects we "see" that are too far away for us even if we did travel at light speed.

    If any physicist out there notices where I'm full of it, please do let me know!
     
  13. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    You heard it here first. 8)
     
  14. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    No, it makes sense, and is completely dependent on the distance of that Galaxy from us.

    Imagine two ends of a rope. If every foot of rope expands to two feet of rope in an hour, the speed at which the ends are moving away from each other would depend on the length of the rope. If the rope were 10 feet long, they would move away from each other at 10 feet/hr. If the rope were 20 feet long, they would move away from each other at 20 feet/hr.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Good clear description!
     
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  16. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would seem light is not effected in any way by expansion.
     
  17. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You assume physics as we now understand it is all there is, basically falling into the sound barrier analogy you present.
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It might have been a little better if nightmare had been clearer about the difference between laws of physics and barriers of engineering.
     
  19. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yet the two are intricately tied together by intellectual sentience. As physics and understanding come about engineering then uses the new knowledge almost immediately.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    True.

    I was considering flight as that was mentioned. It seems the root problem was that engineering didn't know how to create enough power within the size and weight limit. I would suggest engineers worked to apply known physics and materials science in improving engine efficiency, making progress through numerous experiments.

    The Wright brothers had a reasonably adequate airframe before powered flight.
     
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  21. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    But the time it takes to travel between two points is.
     
  22. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suppose then it must be that we just cannot note it.
     
  23. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    Sure we do, we note redshift. We note that, the further away a galaxy, the faster it is moving from us. The demonstrates the expansion of space, which must be the case, if special relativity is true. I am not contradicting anything you said.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that little photon is whizzing along at the speed of light - oblivious to the rate of expansion of the universe.

    I do have questions about this. For example, when objects are receding we see light as being red shifted. So, the cosmic background radiation is so red shifted that we detect it in the radio spectrum - not as light.

    So, how does that fit in with our little model of a lonely photon, zipping across the universe toward us? I think this has to be looked at as a wave model rather than a particle model. Light can be particles but also waves - a duality, right?
     
  25. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I'm not necessarily assuming that our current understanding of physics is all there is. In fact I actually do not believe that at all.

    What I was trying to explain, perhaps poorly, is that most people who claim that FTL travel is possible or something that we will accomplish one day are folks who are just saying such things based on human evolutionary historic patterns. They don't really know "why" we may one do accomplish such a thing but are merely saying that "we learned how to do X when we never thought it was possible so we'll do this one day as well".

    It's more of a "logical" opinion than an opinion based on any understanding of physics or engineering. Humans always tend to achieve what we once thought was impossible sort of thing. As I said my brain is torn on this issue because as someone who just looks at human history I too want to believe that one day we will break the light barrier. However, the amateur astronomer half of me actually understands that this is a whole different ballgame than anything else we have tried to conquer in the past. Breaking the light barrier LOOKS like it would just fall right in line with human advancement but the reality is that this isn't even in the same ballpark and it does take at least a basic understanding of physics to understand why.

    What I was trying to say is that if we were to take our current understanding of physics and go back in time 500 years then nothing we would have accomplished up until this point would have been seen as impossible. Our roadblocks would be engineering based, not physics based. Even if nobody had ever seen a jet plane or could even fathom such a machine back then no scientist would make the statement that breaking the sound barrier was impossible. We'd have the law book that says it can be done, we just simply wouldn't know how to build something to do it.

    Nothing that we humans have ever accomplished was an actual physics roadblock, it was always an engineering one. Physics always said that we could break the sound barrier, we just didn't know physics said that and we didn't know how to engineer machines to do that. FTL travel isn't just an engineering roadblock, it's an actual physics one. This is a roadblock that our own law book says can't be done.

    But, that's not saying we are necessarily correct. Einstein himself at first didn't believe that atom splitting was actually possible while many others at the time were worried about the apocalyptic implications of somebody figuring out how to make a weapon by doing that. And well, fast forward a few years and we humans were leveling cities with our new bombs, bombs that Einstein himself didn't originally believe would actually work.

    So who knows, all our of current reputable physicists believe that FTL is impossible, that's not to say that in the future fresh minds wont look at our current physics law books and see something that nobody else saw, or make a new breakthrough and shock the world by showing us that such a thing actually can be done. I certainly hope so, even though I'll of course be long gone by the time any of this could possibly come to fruition but I would hate to actually have to conclude that we humans are actually stuck in our minuscule part of this vast Universe and we can never actually leave.
     

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