Part 37 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Mitt Ryan, Mar 14, 2017.

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  1. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    I thought you were of the word of Saul/Paul. You rarely post about Jesus' word.

    Does one get to heaven without good works.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  2. Maxwell

    Maxwell Banned

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    You ain't seen anything yet. Wait till the final judgment. When God decides to judge, what are you gonna do about it?
     
  3. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No-one told him he was THE Son of God. That's Christianity's deification of the Jewish Preacher. Jesus certainly believed he was A son of God, as did all the Jews. If you want to believe in the Resurrection that's up to you. I can't get my head around the muddled accounts of the whole arrest/trial/ and crucifixion.


    The Fatherhood of God in the OT is more metaphorical. It's not till the NT that the Gospels make it personal. There is no prophesy of Jesus in the OT. Everything Christianity claims in the OT has nothing to do with Jesus. If you study the OT against ancient history, Jewish interpretation of the Tanakh (which Paul says is inspired) and culture, you will see that. Then around 700 years after most of the Tanakh was written, Christianity comes along and tells the Jews that what Jahweh had told them was wrong, and their interpretation (Christianity's) was right. God can't make his mind up?

    Jewish children were taught the Tanakh from the age of 5 upwards. Till they were 9 the concentrated on the Torah, from 9-12/13 the rest of the Tanakh. Deuteronomy 6:4-9
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    And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall speak of them

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    when you sit at home, and when you walk along the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.

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    And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes.

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    And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  4. DPMartin

    DPMartin Active Member

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    who is Adam's father and what was lost?
     
  5. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Adam who?

    Marduk created man .
    Now Marduk decides to "perform miracles"—he outlines his plan to Ea:

    Blood I will mass and cause bones to be.
    I will establish a savage, ‘Man’ shall be his name.
    Verily, savage-man I will create.
    He shall be charged with the service of the gods
    That they [the gods] might be at ease!

    He gave the task to Enki, who had been secretly working on the same. He eventually managed a perfect man and called it Adapa (Adam).

    Of course the Greek Prometheus made man and Athena blew a spiritual form into the body. Prometheus then taught men how to live and work. Rather similar to Viracocha and Quetzalcoatl. And other myths.
    There was no Adam or Eve or serpent.
     
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  6. DPMartin

    DPMartin Active Member

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    hey your the self proclaimed expert on the Jewish view of the bible, either stick to the scriptures that are the subject at hand, or forfeit.
     
  7. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jewish view of the Bible? You simply asked a question and I answered it.

    Around the 7th Century BCE some scribes in the Babylonian exile created a story from earlier myths to give the Hebrews a history. They accounted for the fall of man with earlier accounts, altering them to suit their way of thinking. We're told there was a book of the law found from the previous temple. Up till the Babylonian exile, which they're told is due to their sins, they worshipped various gods. While in Babylon Ezekiel was inspired to bring them into a closer relationship with Jahweh and envisioned a nation under a Priesthood, rather than a king. A nation under a priesthood is taught what to believe. Similar to Christianity.
    So they believed the writings of the Tanakh as being Jahweh given. As did Jesus. They had no reason not to. Just as some Christians today refuse to accept the fallibility of the Bible. The Jews did not believe in original sin - a Christian doctrine from the 2nd century CE. Each man was responsible for his own sin. Thus Yom Kippur. Few Jewish people now actually believe in Adam and Eve and apart from Israel itself, only about a third of Jews worldwide actually practise their religion. Some carry on traditions such as Jewish Holidays but not religious worship.
    Modern knowledge and archaeology has proved that much the ancients were taught to believe was wrong.

    It's not hard to build a religion on myths and stories. Mohammed found that out. Christianity has found that out. Building on the so-called prophecies of Jesus from the Tanakh.

    Anything else will have to be tomorrow. It's midnight here.
     
  8. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Who was created in the image of Adam?
     
  9. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    quote hey your the self proclaimed expert on the Jewish view of the bible, either stick to the scriptures that are the subject at hand, or forfeit quote.

    I don't claim to be a 'Jewish Expert' I have just studied them and their beliefs in relation to the Bible.

    In the 7th century to remaining Jews (those of the tribe of Judah and Simeon) were taken captive by the Babylonians. The Babylonians had a history to which they could relate. The Jews had no history farther back than approx. 4-5 centuries. They had no origins. The scribes set out to give them one. And this had happened to other nations.

    Every culture/nation had to have a beginning. Thus we have so many similar creation stories, drawing upon each other. The Jews were no exception. The scribes were familiar with the different stories simply because the Israelites had been attracted to these gods, as the Bible shows. We have the Sumerian Adapa and the Jewish Adam.These stories have some similarities but have different ways of getting a point over. The story of Noah is adapted from earlier legend. The fact of their flooding the whole earth and mountains is due to their lack of understanding the impossibility of it happening, but it gives a step toward creating a Jewish nation through 'Abraham'. Does anyone really believe list of centuries of families recorded nearly 2,000 years later. Again it brings us to Abraham who is to be the father of the nation.

    Now the problem comes. Abraham has to fit into the time of the story - around 2100/2000BCE. For the scribes this presents a problem. 2000 years have past and during that time nations and empires have come and gone, and in some cases like the Babylonians and Assyrians, have alternated several times. So they make mistakes in their story. Abraham is said to come from Ur of the Chaldees. This seemed sensible to the scribes as this was how they knew Ur - ruled by the Chaldeans - just before their time.
    They didn't know that Ur had been ruled by either the Sumerians or Akkadians at the time of their Abraham, or that just after their Abraham had left, Ur was destroyed by the Elamites. Who later rebuilt it.

    In 'Abrahams' family they have the son 'Isaac' to establish their identity against those outside, of the family 'Ishmaelites'.

    400+ years are 'spent' in Egypt, for which the history of Egypt makes no mention. We have the miraculous Exodus of 2,5m- 3.0m Hebrews leaving Egypt. Nearly half their population, and no mention in their history of such a large Exodus, which would have altered the whole shape of Egypt.

    'Moses' is ascribed with writing things he could not know, and getting things wrong he should have known. He is also ascribed with writing commandments and various rules and regulations which were already in practice in earlier and contemporary nations. Incidentally, the Pentateuch is written in several different styles, indicating several writers. These writers possibly included some of the Northern Kingdom that the Assyrians didn't take into exile. We know that some remained and were invited to worship in Jerusalem as their Shiloh Temple, where they worshipped Elohim, as opposed to the Jerusalem temple where Jahweh was worshipped, had been destroyed. To understand that you need to understand the Ugarit religion.

    Now we have the ignorance of the scribes of desert living.

    1. The route ascribed would be impossible to such a vast number.
    2. The marching order and camping order given by Jahweh - according to the scribes - would also be impossible.
    3. For the US citizens - can you imagine the population of Chicago wandering through a waterless desert and scrubland for '40' years.
    For UK citizens - Almost half the population of London.

    Now they have to get to Palestine, so they fight their way there, according to the Scribes.There is no evidence of any such thing.

    Another thing. Palestine was not the land of milk and honey. Most of the meagre population barely made a living, and now it is expected to support 3m. more mouths?

    Now, according to the scribes, they have a king called Saul who tries to bring the tribes together, but that is left to the Hero David. And if you know anything about the times the story of David is greatly exaggerated. David could not possibly rule from the border with Egypt to the Euphrates with the men he had available

    Nations were made up of walled cities (for defence), with kings in charge, and with villages controlled by the local city for produce. Once David had taken that city he would have to leave a small garrison to hold on to the city. and there were many walled cities. David had a basic army - including a few mercenaries - but relied on a certain number from each tribe per month. Each tribe would send men for a month at a time, in succession. They could not afford to lose men for long as they were farmers and sheepherders. We know he conquered 'Moab' and 'Edom' at times but how much of each nation we don't know. David's story is greatly exaggerated, as a Hero's should be.

    From then on the Jewish history is known to the scribes in general. Most of the kings can be verified outside the Bible.

    Judaism was formulated in Babylon.

    Of course you're going to reject this. That's up to you.
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hope you are not including the NT in your definition of "Bible"

    In terms of the OT - Top Biblical scholars - who know far more about the OT than Paul did, do not believe that Jesus was the messiah predicted in the OT.
     
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  11. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Ref. Post #759: Of course the Israelites were in Egypt because they were part of the Egyptian Empire. http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/map_egyptian_empire_1450_bc.html They left Egypt when the Egyptians were driven out of the area by another empire. The forty years wandering around the desert could mean some sort of transition period between empires. Imagine if someone wrote a book of all of the events in American history but got all of the events out of order and used metaphors and poetic language. So you could end up with the battle of Iwo Jima being a Civil War battle and the atomic bomb being used in WWI. The battle of the Alamo could end up in the Revolutionary War and Custer could have ended up in Florida with Andrew Jackson.

    The Bible is a fairy tale. It even says that people shouldn't believe fairy tales.
     
  12. JohnnyMo

    JohnnyMo Moderator Staff Member Donor

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