Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Mitt Ryan, Mar 30, 2017.

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  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are not Satan and the Devil one in the same ?
     
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Right - but this is not what the Israelites believed - not what Abraham believed.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was talking about the OT - (and if I was talking the NT I certainly would not be using Pseudipigrapha) such as 1 Peter )

    Clearly it is you who has not read the Bible - so please do not project your failings onto me por favor.

    The relationship between Satan and God in Job is one of Father and Son -- as Satan is one of El's many sons. There is nothing in the OT about Satan getting kicked out of heaven. To the contrary ... in Job Satan is in depicted as in heaven with the Most High.
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I forgot to mention in my first response - that indeed - the version of the Holy Bible that you are reading is likely a corrupted version - (Which version do you use ?)

    That said - even your corrupted version of the Bible depicts Satan in heaven with the Most High .. the Supreme one . .. and we should be using a term other than Heaven I think.

    Satan is depicted as being in the Abode of God - some kind of celebration is happening. Now - certainly this abode is in Heaven - but I think it is important to make this distinction

    Or - perhaps in heaven we all live in the same room ? Jesus says that "My Father's house contains many rooms" does he not ?

    Regardless .. I think it apt that we make some kind of distinction here .. between between being in heaven - and in the direct presence of the Most High ..

    Which gets us into Essene beliefs where you were either in God's presence - our Out .. but this is a different concept - and a different distinction applied in a different way .. for example .. claiming that God's presence is around us .. in some kind of mystical way - something I personally believe .. and likely you as well .. is different than claiming to be literally in God's presence .. hanging out with and conversing with the Most High.
     
  5. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    Normally I would patently point out all the errors you have made in your argument, the scientific and philosophical ones but so poorly have you presented the argument I can just deal with the two huge mistakes you make from your first line.

    1. The bolded is a textbook example of special pleading.
    2. Even if everything you claimed were true, you have merely shown that the universe has a first cause, not that it was a god, not that it still existed and certainly not that it impregnated a virgin, killed itself on a cross and then resurrected itself to save us!

    I won't bother to elaborate since you have shown you do not respond to tough questions for Christians and there is enough above to destroy your laughable attempt at evidence.
     
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  6. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    By the way if anyone wants to read where Mitt copied this from then here is the full transcript which actually makes sense, I do hate it when people copy others and do not quote their sources, its a intellectually dishonest thing to do and against forum rules. Mitt please do not plagerise and not quote your sources!

    https://peterkreeft.com/topics/first-cause.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
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  7. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Now ronald too bad you weren't around on March 25, 2017, that was the day I made the post below. You can clearly see that I made referenced that the first-cause argument was originated by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Have you ever heard of him?...probably not. Well he was as brilliant as they come.

    So no ronald I'm not plagiarizing, my only mistake was to not mention that the first-cause argument originated from Saint Thomas Aquinas in my most recent post on this thread where I presented the first-cause argument.

    There have been a number of times where I presented this argument on these threads of mine and to the best of my recollection I believe I made acknowledgement that Saint Thomas Aquinas was the originator/author of the argument just that as I have already mentioned I didn't do it in the latest presentation I made of that argument on this thread...my bad!

    And furthermore I don't believe I got it from the website you've listed. So before you go accusing people of plagiarizing please do a thorough investigation first.

    Btw, you are a lousy investigator...lol

     
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  8. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    No you copied and pasted the words of Peter Kreeft and presented them as your own, that is plagiarism. Rules state that if you are quoting someone you supply the source, you did not, it is intellectual dishonesty. You can insult and LOL away, people can judge for themselves if you are telling the truth. Others will now be aware of what you do.
     
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  9. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    LoL
     
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  10. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
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  11. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    No, I believe in the Christian God.

    That's YOUR position, not mine.

    Yes, it took some time for all of the separate scriptures to be compiled into a single book. So?

    Yes. Why is this an issue?

    Sure. Why is that an issue?

    I do, actually.
     
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  12. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    The Job passage is not saying that literal humans are literal worms.
     
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  13. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    It's rather obvious that you're suggesting/implying that satan (the devil) is another god, let me point out to you that satan is not a god, will never and could never achieve that status for there is only one true God, The Christian God, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit!

    satan and all the rests of the angels were created by Almighty God the Creator. Therefore how could a created being be a god?...answer....a created being just can't.

    But then let me also point out that God did give His created angels certain powers but of course not at the level that He possesses.

    Almighty God The Creator is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent, there is no other like Him...it's illogical to think there is or could be.

    We Read in Scripture:

    Christ Is Supreme

    15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
    He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
    16 for through him God created everything
    in the heavenly realms and on earth.
    He made the things we can see
    and the things we can’t see—
    such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
    Everything was created through him and for him.
    17 He existed before anything else,
    and he holds all creation together. Colossians 1:15-17 NLT
     
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  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your funny .. where in the OT does it talk about how God created angels - and gave them powers ?

    What the OT does talk about - "not what I am suggesting" - rather "What the OT says" is that there are "Son's of God" and it reverences these beings numerous times .. using this well understood term.

    Now how you understand this term - which comes directly from websites who are desperate to deny reality - garbage websites which I have debunked numerous times on numerous topics that you have brought up - is irrelevant.

    The question is what the people of the time of Abraham and Moses thought this term meant ... and we know what they thought ... which is why no serious scholar or Theologian debates these things ... least not one literate in Biblical Archaeology over the last 20 years.

    The "Son's of God" are "Son's of God" - according to Scripture. Kind of silly to call an Angel a "Son of the Most High" .. "Son of the Supreme one" unless one thinks an Angel is a Son of the Supreme one.

    In any case - if indeed these "Angels" aka Son's of God - do have divine powers - though not as great as the Supreme one .. then what you are describing is a God .. albeit a lesser God

    But this is all nonsense - because the OT delineates between the Sons of God - Humans - and at the bottom are Angels .. in the non corrupted version of the Bible .. as in not the one that you are using.. although .. even in that version you can find it .. just not as clearly as in the non corrupted version of the Bible you are using.

    Regardless - Angel or Son of God - Satan has some rather hefty god-like powers .. and a Father-Son relationship with the Most High.
    The Advocate - or Tester - does not go outside the dictates of the Supreme one .. definitely subordinate to the Supreme one .. Just as Jesus was subordinate to the Supreme one..

    and that Jesus was subordinate to the Father - is what all early Christians believed. Even Modern Trinity Doctrine could not completely shake out the subordinantist doctrine ..
     
  15. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    If there was a heaven, it would be nice if it helped us. You would have been a genius among cave men 40,000 years ago. In 21st Century America, you are in pre-school.
     
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  16. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    You God couldn't defeat iron chariots.
     
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  17. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Obviously you missed it...this passage does indeed tells us that Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ was/is God.

    First off, only God cannot be tempted and fall into sin, anyone else who have easily been tempted by the devil and fall into sin.

    God being perfectly holy, sinless, He will not be tempted and fall into sin. In this passage Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ clearly demonstrated that He couldn't be tempted by the devil's offers...why? Because He was the incarnate God...meaning God in the flesh.

    Secondly, Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ responded to the devil's temptations by saying to him that the Scriptures say you must not test the Lord your God. That was exactly what the devil was doing, he was testing the incarnate God, Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ.

    We Read in Scripture:

    Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ said,

    7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’ Matthew 4:7 NLT

    Why wouldn't he be stupid enough? He was stupid enough to be booted out of heaven by God, he desired to be God, not be a servant of God. He even had a desire to dethrone God.

    That is what he was trying to do here but as we all know he didn't/couldn't succeed, he was stupid enough to try, he just wasn't smart enough to not even think about trying in the first place. This passage I'm going to bring up below is describing ol satan himself.

    We Read in Scripture:

    12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
    O shining star, son of the morning!
    You have been thrown down to the earth,
    you who destroyed the nations of the world.
    13 For you said to yourself,
    ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.
    I will preside on the mountain of the gods
    far away in the north.
    14 I will climb to the highest heavens
    and be like the Most High.’
    15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,
    down to its lowest depths. Isaiah 14:12-15 NLT

    Sorry to say this, sometimes the truth hurts but gift I have no idea how you could call yourself a Christian but fail to recognize what Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ represents.

    Here you downgrade Him in this post of yours and you even have the audacity to back satan up by saying he would not be stupid enough. He got booted out of heaven for the reasons I mentioned and so of course he would be stupid enough!
     
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  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) I did not claim that Jesus was not a God - There is no passage in the NT - from the mouth of Jesus - where he claims to be the "Most High" - the Supreme one .. No no no. Jesus is also the "Son of Man" - thus differing from the other Sons of God .. an interesting distinction.

    2) I am not talkin about Jesus - or the nature of his divinity .. We are discussing the other Sons of God - from the perspective of the ancient Israelites and Abraham..

    3) your interpretation of the encounter with "the Tester" - The Advocate - one who is sent by God to Test - is laughable.

    No on during the time of Jesus nor Mark which takes us to around 80 Ad .. believed that Jesus was "God" -- the Most High.. Nor did they know of any Virgin Birth ...

    In the original version of the story - Jesus is deified as a man of 30.. adopted by a God - as in all the stories of Old .. and as prophesied in the OT .. That is the story of Mark .. that is all people know - as far as we know ..and if there was more .. "such as a virgin Birth" .. didn't seem important enough for Mark to include it .. kind of a funny thing to miss.

    But in any case .. Jesus is depicted as Divine .. no doubt about that .. our good friend the Advocate is also depicted as divine .. and he is clearly playing the same role as the fellow in Job -- that Son of God.. testing the Son of Man .. in the traditional ritual.

    What is laughable - is to think that the Testor would be testing his Father - that is just silliness .. the Most High is the Most High .. this would make the story moronic to the people of that time .. and in fact it wasn't until 300 years after the death of our lord .. that he was fully converted into God .. although still oddly enough .. subordinate .. and a different person from God .. with a different will - not the same mind as God in all ways .. his own person .. although one with God in divine essense.

    Like Satan .. Jesus has a purpose - in this story of the Sons of God .. dueling each other - in an age old battle .. one also played out in the OT.

    Your foundation is weak .. you come from this closed perspective .. where you got God all tight up in a box .. all figured out. This is the biggest flaw .. and you are still borderline "speaking for God" .. a nasty habit .. close - but not at - the unforgivable sin in my books - or rather by my reading of the book.

    You keep trying to divert from the identity of the "Son's of God" - Sons of the Supreme one. Have you ever heard God referred to as "The Supreme One" in the Bible ? .. interesting Trivia question for you .
     
  19. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    So, when the Jesus character said that he was the son of God and that he could give people eternal life, he was just kidding. We can apply that standard to the entire fairy tale.
     
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  20. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    After doing some thorough research into Tertullian and Constantine I concluded your statements to be false...sorry but hey I'm just evaluating what I read from the sources I gather and basing my conclusion from them.

    Now give me a long and nonsensical response like how you normally do, I can't wait to just ignore everything you say in response...lol
     
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  21. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Who in there right mind would look at an elderly person and say/claim they are only two years old? ...answer..no one in their right mine would but a person who has lost their sanity would.

    So of course it would be obvious to anyone who hasn't lost their sanity that anyone who would make such a claim would be making a false statement because a person who hasn't lost their sanity would know that you do not need to know the exact age of an elderly person to know that he/she is not 2 years old.
     
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  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is false ? and one what basis ? The early Church Fathers were subordinatist's .. and Tertullian is recognized as the first to utter something resembling the modern trinity doctrine.

    Sorry - but that is just history.
     
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  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why are you cherry picking stuff from old posts .. rather than addressing the most recent in our conversation ? Are you trying to Hide again ?

    and why are you blubbering on about the fact that it is obvious that an elderly person is not 2 .. what is this related to -- other than some desire to talk nonsense.
     
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  24. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    No. He was being serious.
     
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  25. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    So if someone claims the earth is 5001 years old, would you be ok with it?...lol

    Look for me personally I really don't know if the earth is 5000 years old or 4 billion years old, or anywhere in between those two guesses, I mean who knows?...the answer...only Almighty God The Creator knows, after all He created the heavens and the earth.

    We Read in Scripture:

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. Genesis 1:1-2 NLT
     
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