Patriotism

Spiritgide. I am just back after a brief COVID break. Yep. About 3 days of a very uncomfortable existence, preceded and followed by a couple days of “common cold” ailments. I find your response very interesting. I, also, perceive no rancor offered, nor take any offense at anything proffered. You have an interesting manner of communicating. Some would instantly, I believe, label it as unbearably pompous and dismiss it out of hand. I try not to do so. I will do my best to take you at your word and honor and wait until I can really form any opinion of you other than as well-spoken.
My first query would be with what you seem to have deduced as my motive. Personally, in most cases in which it is so glaringly obvious as to hardly be mistaken, my motives are on my sleeve. I, at one time, attempted to word-corral people in order to “win” my point, but I really don’t feel the desire anymore. I would rather be honest, and hope to receive honesty, as I see more in life that I need to learn than that which I need to teach.
In re your first statement re “God” vs a “Higher Power”, while I believe that I glean the distinction that you are attempting to make, with all due respect I think the verbiage used complicates rather than clarifies your position: " I do not believe in any god. I do believe in a higher power. Gods are man's way of identifying something that would have power over what they think they can't control-“ In my understanding of your point, you distinguish “God” from “Higher Power” by implying that God would have power over .....”, yet your stated belief in a “higher power” implies that you, too, assume the existence of an entity with powers over and above yours. I think it is a bit of the distinction without a difference.
In order to be fair to you, and to your positions, I think that I need to more fully address the other points in your post tomorrow. I am tired, and don’t want to give short thrift to your very well-conceived positions without the ability at the moment to give due credit with my responses. I am not going to speed-read your submission in order to either make a feeble attempt at appearing to more knowledgeable, nor am I even going to assume that I can quickly and effortlessly digest the opinions you express. They are more deserving of reflection than comebacks.
So, I sincerely apologize for my procrastination. It comes from respect, not from a lack thereof. Jim

 

As I said a few moments ago, Spiritgide, I am tired and the night is growing shorter by the moment for me. But, after reading this post just before shutting down my electronic, adjunct, brain that devours so much of my time, I can honestly say that I believe that you and I are going to have some fun, entertaining, possibly enlightening for one or the other of us conversations in the future. I hope that’s true.

 

"Pigs in a Blanket fry em like Bacon" - is also grossly obscene .. when have we had a protest where you don't get some obscenity though ?
People get riled up .. say and do stupid things .. which is what we had go down with the BLM protests .. and not with the Capitol protests.

No one is denying the events .. what is being denied - at least by me - is that these Protestors should be classified as "Terrorists" and also those associated with the protest - writ large. That is what I find obscene .. along with the unequal treatment and violation of the Rule of Law by the Blue Kangagroo club .. "equal justice under law" " one person not to be punished for the actions of another"

What has Blue become ?

 

Jim- I find your perspective refreshing. Appreciate the honest consideration.

Regarding the higher power statement. Yes, I do think there is an entity with powers over mine. However the distinction between this and a god is very significant and important to grasp.

A god is usually considered to be watching over, actively manipulating. People worship and ask favors of gods; fear the retribution of them, seek the protection of them. This is a very fluid situation, sort of the ongoing battle for souls. I don't believe that exists in any way.

Nature on the other hand has a structure of established rules. They are not fluid, not selective in response to our identities. Indifferent to our success or failure, as individuals, as a species. They are just- rules. But the key ones are more than rules, they are principles- which means, constants, principles of interactions that do not change, always functions the same way. All man-made rules (our decisions) are variables- meaning they are subject to change with conditions or knowledge. Constants are not, they have always existed- therefore, man cannot make a true constant. Variables that are soundly based in constant principles are usually valid. Variables that are not are usually invalid, despite what may appear to be validity on the temporary basis

So- I honor and trust those principles. I try to make all my decisions based in the principles, and if something turns out poorly, I can go back and see where I failed to do that. Doesn't make a person infallible, but does dramatically improve the odds of success in one's choices. So I can't ask my higher power for favors, all I can do is learn and follow the principles. Big difference between that and a god. Within the perspective of mother nature- we don't matter one way or another. It's up to us to make the most of the gifts we have, understand the rules.... follow the rules. Or not.... our choice. It's really quite simple.
.

 

You are making stuff up and attaching it to me. I never criticized you for claiming "greatest document ever written" - and in fact tend to concur.

The constitution is not being "used and abused" in ways never meant ?? What are you talking about .. The constitution is being trampled on .. The problem is that it is not being used ..

The "Undeniable Truth" is that it is meaningless nonsense to claim that the things wrong with the US can be fixed by what is Right with the US. First you have to state what is wrong .. then show how what is right is going to fix this wrong.

How is "What is right" going to fix the fact that our two party system is essentially a one party system ?

 

No, you've been attacking me vigorously from the start and ALL I said, with regard to The Constitution, is that it IS the Greatest Document ever written; with which you've decided you now concur. What T'd you off is my challenging your claim that the ATTACK on The Capitol was a protest over tRumps loss, when, IF you look at any of the video fairly, it was clearly a violent insurrection to overturn an election. All of your nonsense about The Constitution is a red herring to disguise that fact. We don't have a disagreement about The Constitution, we disagree adamantly about what happened on January 6th.

And it, now, appears that we disagree on; at what level The Constitution is being abused. All I have to add to that is: "What's wrong with These United States can be fixed by what's right with These United States".

 

Made up gibberish -- I did not attack you w/r to Constitution claim

Never realized you challenged that claim .. so again you are making things up .. but .. of course the Capital folks were Protesting the election result .. What Capitol are you referring to - the one in Namibia ?

Meaningless circular gibberish. 1) what is wrong .. 2) how is it going to be fixed .. second time you dodged this question.

 

Well, here's your post I first (in this thread) replied to:

Giftedone said: ↑
The right did nothing to end democracy. It is absurd to claim that folks protesting an election result represents the end of democracy.
The reverse is true .. in a functional democracy process people have the right to protest.

You have got things all backwards mate.[/quote] That was a response to -Etbauer

To which I responded:

So, I did claim, from the beginning, that the insurrection was not "protesting" but an attempt to overturn our Government.

I believe it's true that "What is wrong with America can be fixed by what is right with America", of course I live here so I have a better perspective than you, mate.

"What's wrong", other than foreigners meddling in our affairs, the greatest threat to our way of life is the infighting and tribalism that is tearing U.S. apart. The "fix" is to stop infighting and become determined to work on our problems together not hamstring each other when one or the other is in power.

 

OK, Spiritgide, I’m back in the saddle but with time limitations this time. First question, would you mind if I refer to you as “SG”? I am not much of a typist and anything I can do to shorten things is a blessing. If, however, you feel the least uncomfortable with that, just let me know. No big deal.
I understand your distinction between a “Higher Power” and a “God” better after your explanation. There are differing manifestations of agnosticism that touch on that, that “God" is a higher power, and a creator, (which can be discussed ad infinitum) but is not actively involved in our day to day business.
I am very curious about you and your insights. Anything that you can easily offer to a neophyte of your philosophy would be greatly appreciated. You seem to have encountered a “truth” in your life after actively searching for one. I must confess that I am much more the bohemian than you. Any “truths” that I have encountered I feel I pretty much Forrest Gumped my way in to. I wish that I had your discipline, as I have very little as anyone who knows me will attest to! lol.
I am curious about your avatar. I feel as if I should know who that is, but I can’t place it. I also wonder if that might be a key to understanding your beliefs.
It might help me to understand if you were to define “Mother Nature” as you see it. I can see that in one manner the definition is blatantly obvious, but in all semantics there can be both denotations and connotations, and that a lot of confusion in communication comes from a lack of recognition of this. The hierarchy of animals vs humans has always been a puzzler for me. Most refuse to even listen to my views because they are pretty far-fetched, and easily refuted is one only looks at the sheen and not the depth of my point. For example: in my opinion I could say that I believe that animals are more advanced than humans in that they “understand” life and death and don’t dwell on it. In my (work in progress) philosophy, they have the innate knowledge that life and death are just manifestations of the same thing, are simply a different form of energy, for lack of a better term. Animals have abilities that we scarcely even are capable of understanding or witnessing. Forms of communication, depth of knowledge, etc. If you are a sci-fi fan (which I am only to a very limited degree) the author Robert Heinlein describes it as “groking”. It is not just communicating or understanding another, but actually becoming one with their thought process and living the understanding rather than rationalizing it.
I am sorry, buddy, but I must run. I will try again this evening to capture some of your time. I think discussions of this sort are almost a lost art in today’s western culture, and it is a loss that really has no equal, in my opinion.

 

Yet, those in office of the fed gov't get reelected over 90% of the time.
Are voters who think congress is useless, a little over 20% approval, stupid?

If the congress is so bad, why do we keep electing the same people?

 

If the election was frauded, the R's on the election commissions of each state, the gov's and SoS of each state are incompetent.
As they all signed off on their election counts as accurate.

Now, prove why you claim there was fraud? You will be a hero.

 

What were they trying to do by halting the election process of congress?

 

I personally don't like the fact we don't actually vote for people anymore, most anyway, they vote for the letter behind their name.

I wish the Independents would number about 50% of the voters, but I think it's about the same as the partisans.
Give or take, about 33% for all. D, R, I.

 

My 'claim' is that the claims of election fraud have not been adequately presented. It seems likely to me the election was stolen because I don't believe we suddenly had record shattering voter turnout for two candidates that most people didn't like. Also because of all the eyewitness and video accounts of behavior that look like textbook vote rigging at vote counting stations. Also because the statistical unlikelihood that rate of change in the results literally overnight happened naturally. Also because I believe our election commissions of each state, the gov's and SoS of each state are incompetent, at least in the cases that they arent outright corrupt. But since the political establishment investigated itself mostly behind closed doors and found that the political establishment ran a 'free and fair' election, I simply don't have 'proof' and I never claimed that I did.

 

Close, roughly 30% for each major party, 40% for independents using Gallup and rounding off their numbers. The problem is the two major parties have a monopoly on our election system. Republicans and Democrats write our election laws and they do so as a mutual protection act. If there’s one thing both major parties agree on, it’s no viable third party will ever rise.


I think what really disgusts me these days, is that both major parties only govern for their party’s base, 30% of America and not for all of America. It’s like when either party get into power, they totally forget that this country is made up of not only their party’s base, but the other party’s base along with independents.


Now folks who belong to or identify with either major party, history has shown they’ll vote for their party’s candidates on average 93% of the time regardless of who that candidate/s are. You’re correct, it’s the letter behind the name they vote for, not the person. Keep the faith, independents have grown from 30% of the electorate in 2006 to 41% today if Gallup is to be believed. Both major parties are shrinking, but that shrinkage means nothing since they control the system, write the rules and laws, have total control.


Here's an interesting article along these lines.


America Depends on the Mushy Middle


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...ewsletter&mc_cid=16a30bce43&mc_eid=3b85baf05a

 

They haven't been adequately presented because, there's nothing to adequately present.
You can bet the believers of the big lie of a fraud election have looked and tried everything that they could.

Turnout was up IMO, because the 2x impeached was so polarizing. And people were determined to stop him from a 2nd term. While others were going to be sure he got a 2nd term.
But it wasn't an earth shattering % of voters changed.


https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/04/record-high-turnout-in-2020-general-election.html

 

I agree the 2 parties have a strangle hold on the gov't and have done everything possible to not let another party become viable.

There will never be meaningful campaign finance reform, term limits or anything that will not let incumbents win over 90% of the time while fostering a blistering slightly over 20% approval rating for how good they are.

The system is broke and corrupt. Money is power. Power corrupts.

I don't know the solution, I started to promote, vote out all incumbents, all the time. As a way to protest this broken system. I don't know what else can be done.

 

Patriotism is racist - progressives.

 

Indeed. But that doesn't mean 'there's nothing to adequately present'. Thats a belief on your part as much as 'the big lie' is on theirs. It seems most likely to me that our corrupt, self serving and opaque political establishment is simply better at hiding the things that really matter than we are at finding them.

It really just boils down to faith in the system, of which I have none. When known liars look to be lying, its reasonable to assume they are lying.

 

Yes, yes it does. If there was something to adequately present, it would have been presented.

If you really believe Rs are so incompetent to sign off on their election results in R states that Biden won, I find that hard to believe one would still vote for incompetence.

 

Gotta vote for someone. D's aint any better. I'm a single issue voter, at least so long as R's aint trying to consolidate a monopoly on force away from the people (yet). If they start, or if the D's give up on 'reasonably restricting' the common citizen from meaningfully defending themself, maybe I can vote for something besides gun rights. Its too bad thats pretty much the only common ground I can find with a major political party, but I spose its also innevitable over a long enough timeline of civilization. You and I aren't in their club and we havn't been for a long time. The difference is I don't pretend otherwise.

 

Damn good question. I’d get rid of the whole bunch if I could.

 

Ah, money, would you believe 14 billion spent on the 2020 elections and that’s not counting another billion plus spent on the 2 Georgia senate runoff elections in January 2021


https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2020/10/cost-of-2020-election-14billion-update/


I also don’t know what else can be done besides voting out the incumbents. In a way that’s been happening. 2006 the Republicans were voted out of the house and senate, in 2010, the democrats voted out of the house followed by losing the senate in 2014. 2018 saw republicans bit the dust as democrats were voted in. If the current trend continues, 2022 will see the exit of Democratic control of congress. It’s close right now, but the trend has slowly drifted toward the GOP since August.


We also had a trend of swapping presidential parties. G.H.W. Bush R to Bill Clinton D to G.W. Bush R to Obama D to Trump R to Biden D.

 

Thanks, but I'll stick with tolerance and respect for diverse views.

 

SG is fine. The avatar is Charles Kettering. He was a prolific inventor as well as a wise philosopher. Invented the electric car starting system, is responsible for the DelcoRemy part of GM and much more. Loved to help people learn, and was very wise. You might Google "Charles Kettering quotes" and browse some of them. One of his quotes I like the best is in my signature below. I seem to hang on to some of these one-line messages when they strike me as valuable, mirror my thoughts or improve my understanding.

A good way to have the kind of interchange I think you would like would be by private message. To do that, just click on the avatar and click "Start a conversation". I have a friend I met here over a year ago in discussing investments. We wound up sharing our skills in that, worked together and both netted mid 6 figure gains in 21. I think we have close to 90 pages of private messages now. We learn from each other; it's a great mutually beneficial friendship. It's been very enjoyable, although we have yet to meet personally. There's always room for another.