PBS Frontline: Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Discussion in 'JFK' started by resisting arrest, May 12, 2017.

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  1. usda_select

    usda_select Active Member Past Donor

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    Did you read your link? Obviously not…

    Here is what it says:

    GSR.png

    Gee, you mean a gunman ditched his weapon rather than advertising that he just shot someone???? How very odd <sarcasm>.

    Well, it was found on the floor by the Dallas Police on the floor of the sixth floor of the TSBD; they had to hold it up. The picture show a police officer holding it. Here is a video of them finding the weapon.



    You can continue to argue but the film speaks for itself.

    Hey, I’m willing to believe that there was a 2nd gunman. Oswald was absolutely one of them though.
     
  2. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    You video doesn't show much of anything beyond the fact that you can build a computer simulation that will do pretty much whatever you want it to. Garbage in garbage out.

    I have seen supposed "proofs" that used ballistic gel with bones embedded in it and in every case where they hit the required amount of bone...the bullet was severely deformed. Almost bent in half

    Oh yea. and please explain how a bullet did all that...hit wrist bones, rib bones etc. (and similarly went through all that wood)and was deformed so little that you could barely see it ...but another bullet fired from the same gun hits JFK in the thin skull bone and completely disintegrates
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  3. usda_select

    usda_select Active Member Past Donor

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    You guys remind me of those who can’t understand why the Titanic sank when it hit an ice berg. After all, one is made of water and the other is made of metal. Take a hammer and hit an ice cube….which one breaks? Does one really have to explain to you that there are different qualities to the ice, to the metal, to the mass of the ice, the density of the metal…?

    You obviously didn’t watch the video. Hard to pry open your eyes over the Internet. The human body is basically a bag of water at varying percentages at different places (lungs more than legs for example)…The Brain is about 3/4 water.

    Maybe something more modern could do it?



    An armor piercing round was turned to confetti by the water. Makes sense that an bullet from the MC would be inferior grade to the Barret 50 Cal. and shred quicker. Let me guess, the guys for NOVA and the guys on Mythbusters are all “in on it too”…right? 50+ years later, the Warren Commission is still silencing critics!!!! Aren’t those dudes all dead?
     
  4. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    You never took them apart the first time
    I have proven you wrong and you know it and you are lying and that is PROVEN.

    Just grow up and stop being such an immature dishonest kid you have been proven wrong and you know it.

    You are lying and you know it

    You took nothing apart you were irrefutably and absolutely proven wrong
     
  5. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    More lies and you are proven wrong again.

    The second bullet was visible and heavily deformed and damaged and the bullet to the skull did not disintegrate.

    Time after time links and evidence proves you wrong they prove you uninformed they prove you ignorant and they prove you dishonest.

    For once you could try to post some sort of evidence of your own to refute what others post BUT you never do
     
  6. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    the bullet to the skull did not disintegrate.

    OK...show us the bullet then.The head shot bullet
     
  7. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Many large fragments exist and are stored in the national archives and were evidence in the Warren Commission.

    http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/head-shot-bullet-fragments-and-naa.html


    Breaking into fragments is not disintegrating.

    Now show any bullet for fragment of a bullet fired at Kennedy from a gun other than Oswald's rifle which was found at the scene.

    Strange how many people provide links and evidence proving you wrong but you never do the same.
     
  8. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Actually Lesh, that one did disintegrate.

    [​IMG]

    Not surprisingly since bullets and bone aren't a good mix. Hunters try to avoid the bones as much as possible since we end up having to pick bullet fragments out of the meat we want to harvest.
     
  9. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    I prefer the term fragmented because disintegration usually refers to something disappearing entirely with no visible parts left.

    What Lesh is asking is why one bullet fragmented and one did not.

    The second bullet hit and passed through a lot of flesh before hitting bone and this slowed the bullet down dramatically and caused it to tumble, but of course skin and muscle being not as tough as bone it did not break the bullet apart and by the time the bullet struck bone ( Connally's rib ) it had lost a great deal of velocity and was tumbling. The tumbling effect means it was not traveling nose first but often striking edgewise as the entrance wound in Connally's back confirms. The entrance wound was not a puncture but a small incision roughly an inch long. This is also why the greatest damage done to that bullet was found along it's back edge.

    The third bullet however struck Kennedy's skull IMMEDIATELY after passing through only a thin layer of skin and hair which did not slow it down at all.

    This means it struck dense bone while carrying a far greater amount of velocity.

    As you point out bullets striking bone often do break apart but this can also change if the bullet is slowed down significantly by passing through a lot of muscle and tissue as the second bullet did.

    This is what the conspiracy theorists keep ignoring. The bullets both ended up in different condition because they struck two different forms of matter and that simple difference accounts for the differences in their condition.

    Throw something breakable like glass onto something hard like your wall and it will probably shatter. Throw it in to some water and it is far less likely to shatter because the water will likely slow it down even if the water is shallow and it hits the hard bottom after passing through the water.

    Not a perfect analogy but the basic principle is the same it is also very easy to comprehend yet conspiracy theorists pretend it is a big deal that the bullets ended up in different condition. It really is not and is easily explainable and understood.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  10. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Ever hear of Bullies? Minimum qualification for Marksman - 190 out of 250 points. Sharpshooter - 210, Expert - 220. Someone shoots 190 and everyone else in the training squad shoots 210 or better. They barely pass while everyone else is rocking Sharpshooter or Expert.

    Yeah...they're gonna pick on the poor shooter who is a poor shooter compared to them.

    Discovery Channel's Beyond the Magic Bullet did just that.


    His 1956 he scored 212 which qualified him for Sharpshooter. Later in '59 he didn't shoot as well and he scored 191 which still qualified him for Marksman. Going down in ranking like that will get people to look down on them. Most Marines try to maintain the same ranking or improve on it. And it doesn't prove that he was not capable of making the shot. Just that he couldn't be arsed.


    That may be more a result of Oswald's Pro-Soviet sentiments. Right in the cold war and you have a fellow Marine siding with the "Ruskies". He had earned not-too-flattering nickname as a result.


    And here's where I have to call bullshit. Snipers pull off brilliant shots all the damn time. There's that bloke from Canada who popped a Taliban's head like a zit from a mile and a half while the bloke was walking. Ted Gundy, a WWII Sniper who hadn't held an 1903 A4 in 66 years was demonstrating his skills at the 300 yard range, firing three times and scoring three hits.

    So a Sniper saying that he couldn't hit a target at a fraction of the range doesn't sit well with me since I make shots into moving targets all the time as a hunter. I'm trying to pop a deer in the heart/lung area at a range of 100-200 yards while they're walking.

    If you were a Marine and people are asking you questions about a former Marine who did something horrible...wouldn't you want to protect your fellow Marine by making them sound like a complete ass to keep the press and tabloids from saying "The USMC trained a Presidential Assassin"?
     
  11. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Looks pretty fragmented to me. What does C399 look like? That one hit rib bones, wrist bones and looks as "clean" as a bullet fired into cotton
    Odd huh?
     
  12. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    The CBS Reenactment Test
    CBS news did a reenactment in 1967 involving several expert riflemen firing from a 60 foot tower at a moving sled using a similar Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. None of these expert riflemen hit the target twice on their first try and 7 of them failed to do so on any try. They also were able to fire several practice rounds before the test.

    The Warren Commission’s tests were equally bad. The WC paid 3 expert riflemen to duplicate Oswald’s alleged feat. These shooters fired 18 rounds using Oswald’s gun and scope.They fired 3 rounds with just the iron sites. These shooters missed the head and neck area of the target 18 out of 18 times using the telescopic sight and 2 out of 3 times when they used the iron sites.Some of the shots missed the target completely. They were able to take as long as they wanted for the first shot. They were firing from a height of only 30 feet. Oswald fired from a height of 60 feet. They were also shooting at stationary targets instead of a moving limousine.

    What many do not know is that the only man that CBS hired that was finally able to make the shot, came to the conclusion that Oswald DID NOT! Howard Charles Hinman Donahue first came to national attention in 1967 when CBS television investigated the Warren Commission report and had several gunning experts test-fire the same make and model of the Mannlicher-Carcano Italian rifle that was used by Lee Harvey Oswald to shoot at Mr. Kennedy on Nov. 22, 1963, in Dallas. He was the only one of these experts that "made the shot" --- After Several Tries!

    And Carlos Hathcock was a LEGEND having held the record for the longest kill shot for over 30 years
     
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  13. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Did you?
    Obviously not.
    From the same source:
    "Following a highly controversial case involving GSR internal Baltimore police documents show that contamination has been a recurring problem. Despite that and the prosecutors' review, the department continues to use gunshot residue in hundreds of cases each year. On the other hand, the FBI lab has discontinued offering GSR testing.

    Special Agent Ann Todd, spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory, said the change was communicated electronically to FBI field offices on March 15, 2006, though it has not been widely publicized.

    Todd said the FBI stopped analyzing gunshot residue because of a shift in priorities, not a lack of confidence in the science.
    The use GSR will be facing many legal challenges as time passes. It is still a widely accepted evidence collection procedure."

    Oswald was not seen on the sixth floor before, during or after the assassination. He was seen on the second floor of the TSBD
    moments after the shooting. NO ONE reported seeing him on the upper floors prior to the shooting.

    Officers Boone, Craig and Weitzman,found the weapon and Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day verified it.
    That's established fact unless you think they all had a
    mutually shared hallucination. That's what they all testified to in front of the Warren Commission itself. Go fish.......


    Oh thank you for your generous concession. Your opinion means so much to me since you know so much about the issue. <sarcasm>
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  14. resisting arrest

    resisting arrest Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As a character in the Oliver Stone movie says: "Usually the first shot is the best. Here, the last shot is perfect." --- He means there were more than one shooter.

     
  15. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    You can't even defend Oswald without admitting he was a relatively inferior shot. The shooting of the president is a feat of marksmanship, all factors considered, that many have tried to duplicate but none have succeeded (when ALL factors are taken into consideration). And you are arguing a barely competent shooter pulled off that feat of marksmanship?

    Your unqualified endorsement doesn't carry any weight.
    I'm not aware of ANY recreation that has ever fully recreated the feat of shooting attributed to Oswald in ALL respects.

    Here's a real challenge: Let's take a bunch of Marine Corps boot camp soldiers who are on the bottom of the shooting ladder, take then to the sixth floor of a mock up set, give them a piece of junk Manlicher Carcano rifle (with misaligned sight) and have them fire off three shots in six seconds at a target moving away from them, crouching down by a window, through the thick foliage of a Texas live oak tree (as per the TSBD), without any practice or warm up and lets see how they do.

    When you have the results of THAT experiment, let me know. That is the only recreation that means anything at all, given the original circumstances.


    Anyone who can point a rifle and pull the trigger is "capable" of hitting a target. The likelihood of hitting such a target under the circumstances already listed is another matter altogether!

    Perhaps.Perhaps not. I doubt Oswald's political views
    effected his rather ordinary shooting scores, however.


    Take it up with Quinten Hathcock! You seem to be comparing apples to oranges though when it comes to feats of snipers and what Oswald is alleged to have done. Yeah...snipers make amazing shots. That's their business and their thing. Lee Oswald was no sniper!

    And aside from a few unenthusiastic rabbit hunting trips (with a borrowed .22) in Russia and with his brother no one who knew Lee could vouch for ever seeing him touch his rifle once out of the Marines, let alone firing it. A shooter he was not and fans of the Oswald did it
    proposition can point to nothing that would make anyone think he had improved on, or even maintained, whatever rudimentary shooting skills he had as a Marine.
    The idea that this man could just one day long past his Marine days pull out those atrophied skills and put them to astonishing use is absurd and counter intuitive to the maximum degree.


    How does candidly assessing Oswald's shooting make the Marines seem any better or worse?
    It's absurd and if anything, it's a testament to Marine Corps instruction and training to think even a very average Marine shooter
    could blow a hole in the president's head given Oswald's deteriorated shooting skills. You can take the word of Oswald's fellow Marines who actually knew him or you can try to lay your own feelings over the top of theirs to try and impeach their views.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  16. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    How are the bones in Kennedy and Connally's bodies anything at all like a pool of water?
     
  17. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    In order to compare individual striations, examiners must obtain a known sample using the seized weapon. For slower-traveling bullets, such as pistols or revolvers, known bullet exemplars are created by firing the weapon into a water tank.[30] The spent bullet can be recovered, intact, as the water slows down the bullet before it can reach the tank walls, allowing for it to be recovered. For faster traveling bullets, such as those fired from high-powered rifles and military style weapons, water tanks cannot be used as the tank will not provide enough stopping power for the projectiles.[31] To examine these weapons, investigators must fire them at a target at a controlled range with enough backing to stop the bullet and collect the spent round after it has been fire

    Regardless of mythbusters...the reason ballistic experts don't use water is not that it deforms the bullet but just the opposite. It doesn't provide ENOUGH resistance with higher powered projectiles to stop them from going though the tank.

    And in every case where ballistics gel was used,,,and bones were added...and the bullet hit the correct amount of bone...the bullet was severely deformed. In most cases nearly bent in half.

    And again...a rifle bullet does not fragment when hitting a human skull
     
  18. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    That was a fictional movie with little or no basis in fact or historic truth.

    The actor who uttered that line is Walter Matthau who plays one of the long brothers who were famous politicians from Louisiana. He is speaking to Kevin Costner who played Jim Garrison.

    Never mind the fact that the entire conversation was dreamed up out of thin air. Jim Garrison mentioned no such conversation in his book " On the Trail of the Assassins".

    The fact is not only was it simply Hollywood scripted dialogue but it was outright false.

    The first shot is usually the least accurate and the most likely to miss. This is why we have such concepts as Kentucky windage where one adjusts ones point of aim when one realizes he or she has missed the target.

    This is why the military invests massive amounts of money to train snipers so they have a better chance of hitting with the first shot, referred to by snipers as a cold bore shot, and again the one most likely to miss.

    Follow up shots tend to be more accurate.

    Also the clip you posted to is pure unadulterated fiction and completely imaginary. Entertaining but no more authentic or accurate or true than a star wars movie.
     
  19. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    It hit A wrist bone not wrist bones.

    And as I predicted you completely ignored the fact that it passed through a great deal of soft tissue BEFORE striking bone which caused it ti slow down and tumble which accounts for the difference between it and the head shot bullet which fragmented.

    All very logical but does not suit your fictional narrative so you ignore it.

    Also it does not look as clean as a bullet fired into cotton it is missing significant mass and is caved in at the back which you also lie about
     
  20. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    All of which is irrelevant.

    We have shown over and over that many have duplicated it and shown it can be done and that is that regardless of anyone else's opinion.

    Opinion is proven wrong when one actually does it as we have shown you and which you have seen
     
  21. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Why are you arguing with me on this? I actually defended your point when I said..."Actually Lesh, that one did disintegrate."

    Nope...not that odd at all. The first one that hit the skull passed through a thin layer of skin and slammed into the bony plated of the skull at full velocity.

    The second round passed through muscle tissue which slowed it down and caused it to tumble. By the time it hits bone...it's not traveling at the speeds needed to tear it apart.
     
  22. usda_select

    usda_select Active Member Past Donor

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    Got that backwards…Fist hit on Kennedy was the so-called “Magic Bullet”. The second one shredded due to velocity and content it was pouring through as numerous scientific demonstrations have shown.

    At this point, conspiracy theorists who question the physics of the event are just being argumentative for the sake of argument.
     
  23. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    You are proven wrong again.

    the skull is just a piece of bone and another posted has proven conclusively that they can and sometimes do fragment when hitting bone, or a skull.

    Your ignoring fact and lying again as usual
     
  24. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    I'm going to say this once and only once.

    If you call me a liar again without PROOF in that post you will be reported
     
  25. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    What you've shown is the opposite. Very FEW experts could duplicate this
     

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