Pennsylvania's Supreme Court Throws Out the State's Gerrymandered Map

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Statistikhengst, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Statistikhengst

    Statistikhengst Well-Known Member

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    http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2018/Senate/Maps/Jan23.html#item-3

    This is especially relevant to the 2018 mid-term elections.

    Here is how PA-07 currently looks:

    [​IMG]

    The nickname for this weird and illogical looking CD is literally "Goofy kicking Donald Duck" among the local population.

    This is Pat Meehan's (R-PA-07) district. Yes, that Pat Meehan, the one who was heading the ethics committee about sexual abuse allegations and now he himself is embroiled in sexual abuse allegations. I suspect that he will "retire".

    Now, I am not blue-eyed about this. The Democrats have also gerrymandered some wild CDs in their day and I am just as against that.

    It's time to let a supercomputer draw effective, logical CDs based purely on:

    1.) population
    2.) geography

    and

    3.) nothing else.

    Then we wouldn't have to put up with this crap any more.

    At any rate, since the Governor of Pennsylvania is a Democrat, he will not accept a newly gerrymandered map and even if the GOP challenges this decision (they will) and it goes tot the SCOTUS, it will be decided before July, which means that very likely, new CD borders will be drawn and all odds are off as to which CDs in PA are "safe" or not.

    -Stat
     
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  2. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    Gerrymandering is wrong, dont do it. non Democrat here.
     
  3. MrTLegal

    MrTLegal Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  4. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    GOP leader is going to be sanctioned.
     
  5. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Gerrymandering is wrong because the elected should not be allowed to cherrypick their voters.

    And yes, that applies equally to both parties.

    As the OP suggests let a computer come up with maps and have them reviewed by the electorate who then get to decide to accept or reject the computer drawn maps.
     
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  6. Statistikhengst

    Statistikhengst Well-Known Member

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    BTW, as predicted in the OP, Meehan is retiring.
     
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  7. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Chortle.
    What happens if the legislature refuses to draw a new map?
    What happens if the legislature draws a new map and the governor refuses to sign the bill?
     
  8. MrTLegal

    MrTLegal Well-Known Member

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    The governor is a democrat, so I imagine he would be willing to sign any new map that does not favor Republicans as much as the current map.

    But if no map is drawn or agreed to by the legislature, I believe the court will draw the maps.
     
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  9. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Where does PA state law give the court that power?
     
  10. MrTLegal

    MrTLegal Well-Known Member

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    Why would that be needed?
     
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  11. Pax Aeon

    Pax Aeon Well-Known Member

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  12. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Utah citizens have gone to initiative ballot to end gerrymandering.

    It has a solid chance to pass.
     
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  13. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    The law specifies who is able to create such things. Is the court to the list?
     
  14. MrTLegal

    MrTLegal Well-Known Member

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    I am not an expert in PA election law, but yes, presumably the law adds the courts as a safety valve.

    But even if it did not, the PA Constitution provides authority to the courts. You are not going to win a Marbury v. Madison argument here.
     
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  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's possible for courts to exceed their lawfully granted powers in the name of supposedly upholding the Constitution. In that case there's nothing you can really do about it, since the courts can issue contempt orders to have people arrested. However, governors have sometimes defied the orders of their state's Supreme Court, since it's a lot more problematic for a state court to try to enforce an order against a governor.
     
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  16. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    "Presumably". Let me know when you have some substance.
    "Presumably" the legislature is given power to draw the map with legislation..
    "Presumably", the court drawing the map is not the legislature drawing the map, and thus steps upon the authority of the legislature.
    "Presumably", the court cannot force the legislature to pass legislation.
    And thus, if the map is declared constitutional, one of two things happens:
    -1 The map stays until replaced
    -2 The map is erased.
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is possible for orders to be enforced that are not lawful, even unlawful, in some circumstances.
    In some states (most of these are blue states, any surprise there?) judges don't seem to have much qualms about issuing orders to state government officials as if they were dictators.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  18. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    The Governor is not going to defy the order.

    But . . . if he does, let me know.
     
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  19. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Anyone know how to do that? If we didn't have the electoral college, most of the nation would be useless votes. Only a few states would decide who runs the country. Many would be left unrepresented. It necessarily will work the same at the state level.

    Meaningful representation is not equal representation. That's a big problem.

    Aren't communities of interest going to create a lack of representation for the minority parties? How would a party candidate other than the standard get voted in?

    The reason for the redistricting, I thought, was to give those minority parties equal representation, and therefore the reason they look terrible on a map. What is more important, having equal representation or a pretty map?

    Is it bad to allow folks a say in the way they are governed? I'm not sure I understand the comment on differences.

    A good redistricting process won't allow only questions. We have that now. You can write to the government and tell them your concerns. This is like offering nothing. What a good redistricting process will do is similar to what the electoral college does. Give everyone a voice in how they are governed by allowing all votes to have the same weight.
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The main thing, if it wasn't for the electoral college there would be massive vote fraud. The way it's set up now, each state is basically responsible for the votes within it. There's not really incentive to throw away votes because only the majority in that state is going to ultimately be counted. The whole system was designed to create a secondary level of decentralized accountability, so you don't have one single gigantic government entity in charge of counting all the votes of every single person in the population.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  21. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not sure what you are telling me. I know this, but I'm not sure what it has to do with what you quoted. We need the electoral college, if everyone's vote is important. My issue is with redistricting. If done carelessly, it can easily lead to the same thing as having no electoral college. After all, many want to get rid of the electoral college. Permanent redistricting would do the same.
     
  22. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    kazenatsu wrote, "The main thing, if it wasn't for the electoral college there would be massive vote fraud. The way it's set up now, each state is basically responsible for the votes within it. There's not really incentive to throw away votes because only the majority in that state is going to ultimately be counted. The whole system was designed to create a secondary level of decentralized accountability, so you don't have one single gigantic government entity in charge of counting all the votes of every single person in the population."

    No, the EC does not prevent massive vote fraud.

    Good, effective state election commissions and their people all the way to the poll workers prevent fraud.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  23. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who said EC prevents massive vote fraud? That's silly. We all know that Mexicans have been voting for years and they aren't citizens. Only citizens have a right to vote. A citizen with a felonious history cannot vote. Though I hear they can apply to vote after they meet some requirements, I think that is a bad idea.

    We know that the feds can't get to deaths in a timely enough manner to stop SS checks for some. Someone can and will use their id to vote a second time.

    I worked the elections. While working as Judge of Elections(before they had to be elected) at a polling place, I saw someone attempt to vote in a district other than their own. They made the mistake of telling their name instead of using the name of the relative they wanted to use for another vote. Yeah, I talked to the county.

    As far as moving districts around, we have to be careful or it will be as if there was no EC. If you don't understand what the EC does or why we need it, just say so and I'll try to find you some articles to help.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  24. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Chester, you are addressing an issue that does not exist.

    Go back and read kazenatsu's comments.
     
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  25. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I answered your post. Redistricting improperly will be similar to removing the electoral college. You can disagree with that, but it is relevant to the op. What wasn't was part of your post, which I commented on.

    You're right. I made a mistake. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018

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