permanent severe impairment after life-saving medical intervention

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by kazenatsu, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:11 AM.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This topic isn't about abortion, but I would like to talk to you about another issue very much related to abortion, in many ways.
    And I would like to do this in the Abortion section, so we can compare and contrast this unique issue with the situation of abortion (some types of abortion).

    What happens to be people who suffer severe trauma, are close to death, and doctors make a heroic effort to save their life. But as a result of the severe trauma, the person ends up severely mentally impaired, and will go on to lead a terrible quality of life.
    Doctors couldn't have known at the time they decided to go to extreme lengths to save the patients life. But now that the person has survived, it becomes evident that the doctors probably shouldn't have revived them.
    Now that they have survived and recovered physically, it's too late to go back. We can't just abort them.

    That begs the question, should doctors have even attempted to save their life, knowing that severe brain damage could result?
    That's a very difficult question, because there's a chance they might turn out to be perfectly fine.

    This is the situation in some abortions too (particularly among the late-term variety).
    There is something that indicates something could be wrong. But doctors do not know for absolutely sure.

    Should they preemptively abort? To prevent the possibility of a baby being brought into being who will be severely and terribly mentally disabled for the rest of its life?
    Even knowing there's also a possibility there might turn out to be nothing wrong at all, and aborting could turn out to have been completely unnecessary?

    This is a situation that's not just confined to the womb.
    Doctors may be faced with this same exact issue on the operating table, on a child or adult in the hospital who is unconscious.

    Just to point out, some of these persons are too mentally impaired to even be able to coherently and rationally contemplate the choice of suicide. So it's questionable whether one could even say the individual would ultimately still have the choice, if they are made to survive.

    As you can see, there are some clear parallels between this and abortion.

    (And Catholics may not be too far off the mark when they compare euthanasia to abortion)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 1:14 AM
  2. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    It is IMPOSSIBLE to be absolutely CERTAIN when it comes to issues like the ones posed in the OP.

    Given that the knowledge of HINDSIGHT is NOT available to those faced with this kind of dilemma they have to rely upon STATISTICS instead.

    The odds of brain damage and/or livelong physical handicaps given these procedures are KNOWN and it then becomes a DECISION by those who are INVOLVED namely the patient, doctor and family.

    No one else should have any right to IMPOSE their BELIEFS upon any of those parties.

    So given that we KNOW that certain EXTREME life saving measures DO result in brain damage and/or livelong physical handicaps AND this is the Abortion forum here is my question to the OP.

    The EARLIER a fetus is born the GREATER the odds of the fetus suffering from brain damage and/or livelong physical handicaps so WHY do those who are ANTI-Abortion INSIST upon FORCING women to give birth to unwanted children who will have these HANDICAPS for their entire lives?

    Why do the BELIEFS of the ANTI-Abortionists OVERRIDE the rights of the women who are faced with making these DIFFICULT decisions?

    Furthermore what is the impact on the mental health of the mother who is now FORCED into a LIFETIME of caring and raising a physically and/or mentally handicapped unwanted child?

    The ideal solution is for the ANTI-Abortionists to BUTT OUT of the PERSONAL decisions of OTHER people.
     
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  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    He probably won't answer your questions but bring in a comment like"" What if PP is selling baby parts to French restaurants"...true, it's happened..
     
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  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    LOL... escape to a new thread....



    You still don't get it..... a BORN person has rights....an UNBORN FETUS HAS NONE....there is a HUGE difference...and you can't change that... YOU canNOT change that...
     
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  5. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of the starting position, a doctor (and nobody else) has no right to tell someone else what they *should* endure for their own life. This is why I am not opposed to suicide. Nobody can dictate what another person should be willing to bear. Beyond that, just about every medical intervention *can* lead to unexpected outcomes. Does that mean none should be attempted? No.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 8:31 AM
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  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    WHOSE body is it? It is the woman's body...NO one else's so only she decides whether to abort or not......it is HER decision not yours... NOT yours...
     
  7. Right is the way

    Right is the way Well-Known Member

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    How are paternity orders for children forced on men then. If it is only a women's decision then how can a man that did not want a kid forced into parental duties?
     
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    FoxHastings said:
    WHOSE body is it? It is the woman's body...NO one else's so only she decides whether to abort or not......it is HER decision not yours... NOT yours...



    This is very simple ( and obvious).

    BEFORE birth the fetus is inside of, part of, and attached to the WOMAN.. therefore ONLY the woman gets to decide what to do with her body.



    After birth, it no longer part of the woman, it becomes a person with rights.

    It becomes a child.

    PARENTS( mother and father) are THEN BOTH responsible for it....

    IF "men" don't want to support their kids then they can 1) stop having sex 2)always double up on condoms 3) get fixed 4) run away and hide 5) GET THE LAW CHANGED AND QUIT WHINING
     
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  9. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Men have the same choice a woman has prior to having unprotected vaginal intercourse. Do it or don't do it...with the understanding a life can be created and two people caused that to happen - so both are responsible for that life until the age of majority (in most places that is 18).
     
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  10. Right is the way

    Right is the way Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for tell me how a baby get made, I was wondering were my three kids came from. My question is simply that if it is the choice of the woman and the woman alone according to how abortion laws work, then who the conception happened with is of no matter. The woman can choose to have the baby or not, and the guy should be able to choose whether or not he wants to be involved or not. I personally find a guy like that indefensible but it is the womans choice to do with her body as she chooses.
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    FoxHastings said:
    WHOSE body is it? It is the woman's body...NO one else's so only she decides whether to abort or not......it is HER decision not yours... NOT yours...





    This is very simple ( and obvious).

    BEFORE birth the fetus is inside of, part of, and attached to the WOMAN.. therefore ONLY the woman gets to decide what to do with her body.



    After birth, it no longer part of the woman, it becomes a person with rights.

    It becomes a child.

    PARENTS( mother and father) are THEN BOTH responsible for it....

    IF "men" don't want to support their kids then they can 1) stop having sex 2)always double up on condoms 3) get fixed 4) run away and hide 5) GET THE LAW CHANGED AND QUIT WHINING





    Where TF did I do that? NO where...never mentioned how to get a baby made.....what post did you read??????




    Not concerning women's right to bodily autonomy.


    Fine. Then "men" who want that choice should petition their lawmaker's to pass laws letting weak male parents be absolved of all responsibility …and hence ALL connection or relation to that child and suffer jail time if they EVER try to make contact or see that child....

    To sit around being jealous of women because they can have abortions is the height of not having grown up..



    Yes, it is, glad you got that right....but I think you fail to realize that once a child is BORN they BOTH have responsibility for it.

    You want a world where parents don't have to be responsible for their children....that's pathetic...
     
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  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Many times the patient is in a coma or unconscious, and unable to weigh in on the decision. Or it could be a small child.
    Very much like a developing fetus.

    Like I said, the one to whom the decision pertains may be unable to give their consent or express their choice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 4:23 PM
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What rights does someone who is unconscious and in a coma have? When someone else, or other people, are making the decisions for them?
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's not only a matter of statistics, it's also a matter of values. How many persons who will have a good outcome are we okay not to save, to prevent how many persons who will have a bad outcome from surviving?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 4:29 PM
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    FoxHastings said:
    You still don't get it..... a BORN person has rights....an UNBORN FETUS HAS NONE....there is a HUGE difference...and you can't change that... YOU canNOT change that...



    What rights does a fetus have?

    Whose body is it if it isn't the woman's ?


    Answer some questions first, questions that you have evaded many times, and then maybe I'll answer yours....:) Although it was answered in the post of mine you quoted!!:roflol:
     
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  16. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    Yes, the woman's values NOT YOURS.
     
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  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The woman's values, why hers?

    She might be deciding to adopt anyway, so the future care of the child might not be in her hands.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 4:31 PM
  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    NO, a small child is NOT like a developing fetus.
     
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  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    UHGGAH DUH, because she's the one who is pregnant....who did you think had the fetus inside them ?????? Are you confused???




    What rights does a fetus have?

    Whose body is it if it isn't the woman's ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 4:32 PM
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  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Huh? She was going to be pregnant anyway, whether the child had a good or bad outcome.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 4:32 PM
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    What TF does that mean?

    UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:

    What rights does a fetus have?

    Whose body is it if it isn't the woman's ?
     
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  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That means, in the case of her going to adopt, why should her being pregnant be relevant to whether the child will be disabled or not?
     
  23. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    This has happened and as always there is family involvement on the ultimate decision. If you think this scenario is “rare you are terribly terribly wrong. End of life decisions are made second of every day somewhere in the world - more so since Corona as scarce medical resources dictate that not everyone will or in some cases should have expensive and invasive medical treatment.
     
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  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Banned

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    What TF ??? are you talking about??? What TF has adoption got to do with any of this ???


    Trying to wheedle around giving answers ??? :)




    UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:

    What rights does a fetus have?

    Whose body is it if it isn't the woman's ?
     
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  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My question was: why should the woman get to choose based on factors that don't affect her?
    If she's adopting, the ultimate state of the child will not affect her, correct?
     

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